Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 1:46:53 AM)
(This user has entered Demonic Office of OOC) (IP = 121.222.133.25)

Adam Johnson (Jun 20, 2011 1:46:59 AM)
(This user has entered Demonic Office of OOC) (IP = 71.55.169.141)

Selma Nelson (Jun 20, 2011 1:47:00 AM)
(This user has entered Demonic Office of OOC) (IP = 74.77.248.111)

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 1:48:57 AM)
sorry guys just waiting on Legion now.

Selma Nelson (Jun 20, 2011 1:49:01 AM)
ok

Adam Johnson (Jun 20, 2011 1:49:03 AM)
kk

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 1:49:42 AM)
(This user has entered Demonic Office of OOC) (IP = 121.222.133.25)

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 1:50:03 AM)
Hello all

Selma Nelson (Jun 20, 2011 1:50:20 AM)
hello

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 1:51:36 AM)
Okay, before we get into anything herem I would like to clarrify some termalogy so that we are all clear on where we are. I am not about to accuse anybody of anything of the bat, but I think you both should be aware of how things at least LOOK at the moment

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 1:52:43 AM)
When IC play is directly affected by OOC knowledge, this is metagaming. The player acts in such a fashion as to avoid or manipulate IC events or reactions... thats number one.

Adam Johnson (Jun 20, 2011 1:53:11 AM)
ok, i've just come across a technical issue with my laptop. i have a 40 minute charge and then i'm compless until wednesday

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 1:53:36 AM)
Cheating itself should be easier to isolate howver is often much murkier.... as rules are often unterpreted inccorectly

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 1:54:48 AM)
What I have been presented with over the last few days, are multiple instances of Adam Johnson lying to other chars without any attempt to role subterfuge, and thus other characters have been acting on false information.

Adam Johnson (Jun 20, 2011 1:55:15 AM)
i was going on what i was told by jeanette

Adam Johnson (Jun 20, 2011 1:56:05 AM)
i keep doing my thing, report to jeanette if there's any threats to the court

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 1:56:21 AM)
I then see that rather than swallow pride and apologise for insulting one of the cities highest ranking chars, Adam turns to one of the sweetest natured chars on the chat, one who stood before court and said she would defy the eddict of the court in order to see Adam healed, agreeing to destroy him foir eternity

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 1:56:54 AM)
Adam, this 'looks; very bad

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 1:58:09 AM)
There is no IC reason that I can possibly fathom that Selma would destroy you for eternity, nor that you would rather be destroyed that offer a simple apology for not recognising Eminance, though the second is your choice of course

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 1:58:29 AM)
So we have the IC lying and the devouring as the two issues

Adam Johnson (Jun 20, 2011 1:58:35 AM)
his conviction won't let him. he doesn't feel he's wrong for his actions

Adam Johnson (Jun 20, 2011 1:58:57 AM)
what IC lying?

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 1:59:14 AM)
but his conviction is not strong enough to stop him from lying to other court members, other than the Ministers... that makes no sense

Adam Johnson (Jun 20, 2011 1:59:24 AM)
when did he lie?

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:00:12 AM)
I am fetching up the log

Adam Johnson (Jun 20, 2011 2:00:43 AM)
i have about 30 minutes till my battery dies

Adam Johnson (Jun 20, 2011 2:00:47 AM)
and i can't recharge

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:01:24 AM)
OKay the first is a screen shot where you say"

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:02:05 AM)
"Violetta tried to threaten Selma and her sister. You're trying to use what we had against me"

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:02:32 AM)
NO such threat was ever made

Adam Johnson (Jun 20, 2011 2:02:39 AM)
he construed violetta's comments after the inquisitor slapped him as threates

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:02:52 AM)
Adam we have logs of all these events.

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:02:53 AM)
hmmm

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:02:54 AM)
no

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:02:59 AM)
I will; post these commensts

Adam Johnson (Jun 20, 2011 2:03:01 AM)
when she said 'i'd hate to see something happen to selma or her sister'

Adam Johnson (Jun 20, 2011 2:03:09 AM)
he took that as a threat

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:03:36 AM)
*Shaking her head she looks to Adam.* You are confused, and while you may enjoy the idea that people fear you it is not the case. Adam I offered you nothing but friendship since the moment you arrived in this city. Numerous times we drank together, I invited you to join me and my friends and yet in a moment of pique because you resented my standing as comander of a battle you decided to cause enmity between us. Even now, I am trying to help you by bringing you to an understanding of the immense danger you put yourself and Selma in. *She sighs a mournful sound once more and shakes her head.*

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:03:48 AM)
how is this threatening

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:04:10 AM)
'even now I am trying to help you...."

Adam Johnson (Jun 20, 2011 2:04:42 AM)
there was more to it than that comment

Selma Nelson (Jun 20, 2011 2:04:43 AM)
She asked him not to be seen with selma because she would hate to see something happen to her or her sister.

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:05:26 AM)
I have the entire log of the whole scene

Selma Nelson (Jun 20, 2011 2:05:31 AM)
or she said that to selma not to be seen with him cause she would hate for something to happen to her or her sister for being seen in public with him

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:05:36 AM)
in fronn to of me, I have for three days

Selma Nelson (Jun 20, 2011 2:05:37 AM)
was that not in that log then

Selma Nelson (Jun 20, 2011 2:05:39 AM)
?

Adam Johnson (Jun 20, 2011 2:05:40 AM)
he took it as a threat

Adam Johnson (Jun 20, 2011 2:06:01 AM)
i've played it as such

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:06:19 AM)
*She shakes her head as she looks to him.* We are creatures of heirachy Adam, we always have been. I can only assume that your mortal memories are interfering with the elohim that you are. But your pride just placed Selma in danger, by extension, was it truly worth it? *She sighs and looks to Selma.* The one he just openly insulted was the Grand Inquisitor Selma. The head of the cities secret police. He called the Lord General, the head of the cities military arm a pawn of the earthbound and dismissed the power of the Tyrant himself. We are not mortals, we do not live in a democracy.

Selma Nelson (Jun 20, 2011 2:07:05 AM)
*nods* indeed he was in danger and selma as a bi product of that danger..

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:07:05 AM)
that was just prior.. not once was he threatened, but warned, and then called a freind

Selma Nelson (Jun 20, 2011 2:07:18 AM)
i got that much

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:07:36 AM)
Selma. *She smiles gently at her and reaches out to clasp her hand holding it lightly.* We are -not- mortal. I know the memories come strangely, and much of what we were is forgotten. But we are not bound by their morality, we do not have courts with juries, or democratic votes. We have our standing and prestige to protect us, our strength at arms. We obey the Tyrant or we do not live in the domain that he rules. That is our way. I can protect you from much, and I would, but not his wrath if it is directed at you mon ami, and the Lady Inquisitor acts in his name.

Selma Nelson (Jun 20, 2011 2:07:38 AM)
and after "that" scene he asked her if anything happened that she devour him

Selma Nelson (Jun 20, 2011 2:08:27 AM)
He asked she didnt ask to devour him she does not want him to die

Selma Nelson (Jun 20, 2011 2:08:32 AM)
she has asked him to appologise

Selma Nelson (Jun 20, 2011 2:08:37 AM)
more then one occasion

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:08:41 AM)
Selma, you would not attack anyone in the sl scene, you stood against the entire court to say you would heal him.... you would not devour him when there is no need

Selma Nelson (Jun 20, 2011 2:09:48 AM)
she is a HEALER she don't attack I agree with that. But would she deny him that dying wish, There is rolls one must make to do something contrary to there conviction conscience and courage

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:09:49 AM)
Adam has misrepresented the facts without roles more than once... Adam told Ogre ooc that he had been approached to kill violatte and Kanish, untrue

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:10:13 AM)
Adam claimed that he was working for the lady inquisitor - untrue

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:10:36 AM)
Selma: The issue here is that your character knows that a simple public apology would save his life. Save a life that has existed for an eternity and a life that is ageless and timeless. As a suicide coucellor would she truly help him embrace death instead?

Selma Nelson (Jun 20, 2011 2:12:20 AM)
Sure she would TRY to get him to appologise, She has Tried to get him to apologise. But the first time he refused and the second time he told her he had things under control something about trusting janette and that she didnt know the story and had to trust him. She of cource sees no reason not to trust him and has done such.

Adam Johnson (Jun 20, 2011 2:13:03 AM)
so jeanette never came to adam and cut a deal with him regarding the lady inquisitor?

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:13:08 AM)
Absolutely, but jumping from that to being willing to kill and devour him is a leap I am having trouble seeing for the character.

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:13:10 AM)
Adam has lied without rolls, even if against all odds, you truly missed was was clearly understood by three other ST's on first glance, on that oe oocasion

Selma Nelson (Jun 20, 2011 2:13:28 AM)
Since then something happened with london or what have you and he told me he would need to speak of the devouring thing as the city is truly out to "devour" him. we did not get to play that out. and i wont be avilable till after friday cause i got company coming

Selma Nelson (Jun 20, 2011 2:13:38 AM)
so we where gonna talk to the sts about it

Selma Nelson (Jun 20, 2011 2:14:47 AM)
what rolls i want to know did my chr lie about?

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:15:11 AM)
She did, and herein lies another problem Adam. Janette came to the Inquisitor and told her (and me OOC) that Dante had approached Adam to hire him to assasinate Kanisha and Violetta. Dante had a valid complaint regarding this and after reviewing those logs as well we can confirm that is another lie, Dante never attempted to hire Adam to kill anyone and quite obviously told him that Janette and Violetta were talking about Adam being in danger from a third party.

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:17:04 AM)
This of course had the carry on effect of being information that was good enough to get Janette a position with the Dragons. Because this information wasn't true OOC it embarasses Ogre, IC it invalidates irretreavable play and IC it further embarasses the Inquisitor and becomes a death sentence to Adam.

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:17:56 AM)
You have been playing a character who lies, which is totally acceptable, demons lie. However the consequences of such, since all these characters have now come forward with information, is that you have told these IC lies without making any rolls or allowing people to know OOC that they are lies.

Adam Johnson (Jun 20, 2011 2:19:12 AM)
as far as the character and myself were aware, these were true

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:19:17 AM)
Selma hon, I am the ST to talk to and here I am :) Selma from what I can see is blameless, in that she has just accepted everything Adam has said wholsale

Selma Nelson (Jun 20, 2011 2:19:19 AM)
Has my actions been seen metagameing on some behalf for lying to people without rolls? My chr said he tried to blame kanish as if kanish was out for there heads or something. because dante didnt like kanish cause she tried to previously kill him. My chr made the roll to see that he was attemping this lie coup thingy and i got 4 suxxs.. he said yes his chr was lying about kanish and trying to make vio look better then she was or some such.. Anycase i made my roll and don't recall lying)

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:19:46 AM)
Adam you were in the scenes. We have the logs, they are not grey areas.

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:19:46 AM)
Selma, read previous post hon

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:21:05 AM)
Now, as for any further ruling in this case. Based on the logs which are clear as crystal, The team feel that Selma acted in character as a woman love. I am happy with your conduct both IC and OOC.

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:21:35 AM)
What Dante did in that scene is -exactly- what you need to do when you lie IC. He made a manipulation + subterfuge roll and gave players the opportunity to make an empathy roll in responce. He made it clear that his ic words and ooc truth were at odds.

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:21:49 AM)
Now Selma, at this point I would ask you to return to either the OOC or IC so that I can continue with what little time we have with Adam

Selma Nelson (Jun 20, 2011 2:22:38 AM)
okay well I was confused then cause I went by the information i was told about dantes lie. however when janette came she asked if selma had given permission for dante to enter through her sisters room selma did say she invited him over and never specified how he was to enter so it was on her.. she said that he was a "friend" but that she was dissapointed in his need to try and lie. She was honest as far as i know in her report of the entire situation cause she did catch dante in the lie how he tried to say kanish was our enemy or what not just to get us to not trust her because he didnt like her

Selma Nelson (Jun 20, 2011 2:22:54 AM)
ok

Selma Nelson (Jun 20, 2011 2:22:56 AM)
(This user has moved to OOC Room) (IP = 74.77.248.111)

Adam Johnson (Jun 20, 2011 2:24:13 AM)
my comp is telling me my battery is about to die

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:24:15 AM)
Adam, I am going to be very blunt, I have no personal stake in this game other than making it work for everyone so lets be clear, I am here to moderate the rules and play: I dont have 'likes' and 'dislikes' between the base

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:25:42 AM)
Unless you have some ooc weakness with english that I am unaware of, the logs clearly show that you have repeadedly misrepresented the truth. This was either unintentional as you were not paying attention, or intional but didnt realise you needed to roll

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:26:46 AM)
either way. If I recieve another batch of screen shots like I have this week, that show that you are lying without making the correct subterfuge roll's, I wil redact the scenes in question and issue you an venue warning

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 2:26:50 AM)
(This user has entered Demonic Office of OOC) (IP = 71.55.169.141)

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:27:05 AM)
is Adam ghosting?

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 2:27:13 AM)
battery went kaput

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:27:43 AM)
in that case, i will be forced to continue this by fpm,

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 2:27:51 AM)
as soon as i posted that my laptop was warning me, it shut down

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:28:17 AM)
in short, a list of discrepancies will be sent to you and to the players in question, who will be able to roll against them

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 2:28:53 AM)
ok?

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:29:11 AM)
If I recieve another batch of compplaints in regards to false information, you will be issued a formal; venue warning

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:29:57 AM)
Selma will not be devouring you, as there is not enough IC justifiucation by a long chalk, and neierth will jeanette

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:30:53 AM)
As the char has shown himself to be willing to bend the truth and lie (which is fine) there is no reason why he couldnt lie in his apology to the court. However, your road is your own while it lasts

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:32:03 AM)
As the HST, I do not give death warrents out to players, I create choices as no choices are no fun. Ironically it was your giviong falsehood to ogre/jeanette that ultimattely gave the inquisitor no options

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:32:15 AM)
either stand publicaly embarresed or strike back

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 2:32:47 AM)
he's as good as dead already

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:32:52 AM)
IN any case, that is the venues call in this case. NO more subterfuge without the correct systems please

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:33:13 AM)
If you truly feel that way, then play out his grand final moments and create a new pc.

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:33:52 AM)
As I said, that is your choice. There are a few ways out of your current predicimenmt, tellling the inquisitor to get stuffed and lying to all about you are not listed among those choices

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 2:35:01 AM)
honestly... lol. this probably could have been avoided months ago when adam asked vi and london who 'his hotness' was and they only told him 'you'll find out later'

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:35:25 AM)
:) .Now, I am going to have a quick chat with Selma and then i'm off. I remain available in fpm if you need me or want to discuss any part of this issue further

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:35:40 AM)
Take it easy... and roll dice! lol

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 2:35:56 AM)
and if the character honeslty believes it to be true?

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:36:17 AM)
in your case... i'd check ooc

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:36:19 AM)
;)

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:36:32 AM)
The character has to honestly believe it nbdy. The logs show that Adam had no reason to believe those things.

Legion (Jun 20, 2011 2:36:39 AM)
(This user has moved to Legion's office) (IP = 121.222.133.25)

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 2:36:50 AM)
hell, i personally believed those things

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:37:08 AM)
lol read closely!

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:37:11 AM)
Carefully!

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 2:37:11 AM)
i did

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 2:37:38 AM)
with demons especially, it's alot of what you don't say

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:37:47 AM)
maybe if it's a big issue such as the ones that have come up you should double check ooc?

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:38:32 AM)
Either way I would encourage you to play Adam out in the way that you choose. Remember to be clear on what is true and if you lie ic just throw down that manip+ subt roll.

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:38:43 AM)
And think about a new demon in case worst comes to worst.

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 2:38:51 AM)
already working on a fixer

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:39:52 AM)
okay cool :) Just roll with it ic

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:40:05 AM)
We ALL have characters that mess up, or get killed or whatever

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 2:40:12 AM)
i'm going to be without my comp until this weekend most likely

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:40:21 AM)
Just keep in mind that I am a skype away and can have you sanctioned with a new char in moments.

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 2:40:33 AM)
dusk, when adam dies, this will be my 3rd demon on this site

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:41:13 AM)
Yeah but you know .... standing up and telling the court to go to hell and not recognising the standing of eminence is a gutsy thing to do... but not great for char logevity

Adam Johnson (Jun 20, 2011 2:41:49 AM)
(This user has left DigiChat) (IP = 71.55.169.141)

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:41:53 AM)
The guy that walks up to a dictator like say Stalin and says "Screw you!" is really really brave and possibly noble etc. Still doesn't mean he will live long you know?

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 2:42:14 AM)
he asked questions and was shunted away. of course he's going to rebel when he's given demands by the one who ignored his questions in the first place

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:43:24 AM)
Yeah but it's an unequal power relationship

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:43:27 AM)
That's what eminence is

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:43:31 AM)
almost fuedal

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:43:47 AM)
If the peasant is talking to a knight they can't expect equal treatment

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:44:01 AM)
if a knight is speaking to a baron they can't expect equal treatment etc

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 2:45:11 AM)
but when you ask who the king is and aren't told a thing, how can you stand for someone you know nothing about? he was shoved aside originally when he actually wanted knowledge

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:45:24 AM)
Right which is cool

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:45:37 AM)
And I see why he was unhappy

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 2:45:54 AM)
so in a roundabout way, it falls on vi and london for some of this

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:45:57 AM)
But there is a difference between backing away and being outright hostile, demeaning, insulting etc.

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 2:46:21 AM)
he tried to distance himself and got dragged in

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:46:35 AM)
He went out of his way to be hostile to demons of higher eminence.. that culminated with him being hostile to the grand inquisitor.

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:46:51 AM)
The eminence system is central to demonic social itneractions.

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 2:48:10 AM)
maybe so. i did notice something though. his infamy has always been totally ignored

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:48:47 AM)
It probably added to Legions decisions regarding npc actions.

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 2:49:07 AM)
by PC's as well

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:50:39 AM)
Right. Just like I said try to think of it as a more feudal system rather than a democratic one.

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:51:01 AM)
The peasant or knight etc that is going against his Lord/Baron/Duke etc will do so quietly, in secret.

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:51:23 AM)
Walking up to them and saying "Flip you" is really just going to get them in a whole world of trouble they are unable to deal with.

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:51:26 AM)
Know what I mean?

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 2:52:56 AM)
i was thinking about it when i made him. he was the boogeyman to angels and demons alike during the war. he was feared. and all he gets is 'how cute'

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:53:46 AM)
Maybe it's because people haven't made their legacy rolls? Or perhaps because they were characters of greater fear and prestige back then.

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 2:55:58 AM)
but adam doesn't have much longer in the world, so it's really a moot point

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:56:03 AM)
But you know if Adam is going to be damn courageous enough to choose final death over public apologies, play it out! Have him fight to the end tooth and nail, dying in an epic rage, spitting defiance to the sky.

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 2:57:27 AM)
he knows he's going to die, so he spent hours convincing selma to eat him. that way she could always have a piece of him with her, so no one could take him away. he wants to go out on his terms

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:58:37 AM)
Well if you are convinced he is going to die then I encourage you to make his exit spectacular and get another demon history up and sheet on the system and you know I will sanction you asap.

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 2:59:25 AM)
that's the thing. he doesn't want to go out in a blaze of glory. he wants his end to be quiet and dignified

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:59:38 AM)
Just go with it, and be really careful in future to make sure you're understanding informatio that people are giving you and if you lie ic make the roll.

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 2:59:54 AM)
Got to run as Legion has called me and I only have a little while left before I need to bounce offline.

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 3:00:08 AM)
Feel free to grab me anytime if you need to talk, yo uknow my skype!

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 3:00:09 AM)
kk

Dusk (Jun 20, 2011 3:00:16 AM)
(This user has moved to Legion's office) (IP = 121.222.133.25)

nbdyhome OOC (Jun 20, 2011 3:00:30 AM)
(This user has left DigiChat) (IP = 71.55.169.141)