Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 1:53:56 PM)
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Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 1:54:31 PM)
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Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 1:56:30 PM)
Afternoon. ^_^
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 1:56:38 PM)
Good afternoon
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 1:56:48 PM)
Hello. Still morning here, for 3.? minutes?
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 1:57:09 PM)
It's almost 8pm here.. so don't take it too literally. *chuckles*
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 1:57:55 PM)
Yeah, I noticed the time difference on Skype. Some day I'll get to Europe. Some day.
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 1:58:45 PM)
I don't know if tpos Keening Sorrow or Thisbe are going to make it. Ducky didn't answer my PM so he may be afk. But I know Finn will be here momentarily.
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 1:59:09 PM)
Alright.
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:00:08 PM)
of course it would be better if the others were here. so it would be more than just our pack
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:00:40 PM)
I know Thisbe may have had to work.
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:01:02 PM)
The nice thing about discussing things in a room rather than a PM, is that I can show the log to anyone who would like to see it later.
Finn Bailey (Jul 24, 2011 2:01:04 PM)
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Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:01:21 PM)
This is everyone you -know- is coming then?
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:01:23 PM)
*nod*
Finn Bailey (Jul 24, 2011 2:01:24 PM)
Hi.
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:01:34 PM)
Hello
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:01:55 PM)
doug is back on line qf, you cancheck to see if he is thisbe's agent
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:02:02 PM)
Yeah. tpo Keening said they'd try to be here, but no sign of them. They're not on Skpye either so this may be it. Still not sure if Ducky is going to join us but still no answer to the PM
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:02:38 PM)
Alright, for the record, if others who were in the scene care to join us later, they're welcome to. But I'm not backtracking to repeat answers if they have the same questions. ^_^
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:03:30 PM)
okay
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:03:58 PM)
I will, however provide the log if you care to distribute it. That work?
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:04:14 PM)
Sure. :) I was going to cap but that works.
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:04:41 PM)
Saves time and effort. lol
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:04:49 PM)
ty
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:05:23 PM)
Alright, I have the novella here in front of me. Shall we begin?
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:05:44 PM)
sure. and sorry about the wordy letter.
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:05:44 PM)
sure
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:06:13 PM)
No worries.
Douglas Flannagan (Jul 24, 2011 2:06:29 PM)
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Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:06:35 PM)
Just in time.
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:06:44 PM)
Hi Ducky
Finn Bailey (Jul 24, 2011 2:07:09 PM)
Hi Douglas
Douglas Flannagan (Jul 24, 2011 2:07:15 PM)
want me to get Krys online too?
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:07:32 PM)
If you like.
Douglas Flannagan (Jul 24, 2011 2:07:53 PM)
sure thing. She'll be on in a sec
Krystal Hamilton (Jul 24, 2011 2:08:34 PM)
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Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:08:44 PM)
Hello Krys
Krystal Hamilton (Jul 24, 2011 2:08:51 PM)
Hello
Douglas Flannagan (Jul 24, 2011 2:08:58 PM)
I can probably russle up Derryl too if you guys would like.
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:09:08 PM)
Alright..I can really only work with the actuals here. I have the dieroller log and the logs from all the scenes, and can only really explain/prove what they show. So in the letter, past a lot of explanation of your outlook on STing and how things should be done, seems the first issued was with Blk's ruling that those who botched the umbral roll were trapped. Is that a good starting point or did I miss one?
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:09:09 PM)
anyone involved should be here
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:10:39 PM)
Doug, if they were in the scenes, they're welcome to come in.
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:11:18 PM)
The room is unlocked. ^_^
Krystal Hamilton (Jul 24, 2011 2:11:26 PM)
TPO Morgan is coming in too
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:11:52 PM)
That's as good a place as any. The first thing we noticed was that we were "spotted" as soon as we entered the scene, which kind of screwed us from the word go because we were there on a stealth recon. The thing that got us spotted was Emilia, but this scene was for all the players that showed up. Usually STs cut you some slack for OOC circumstances. it wasn't a HUGE thing, but it did start us off on a bad foot. Then came the botched rolls.
Douglas Flannagan (Jul 24, 2011 2:11:59 PM)
ok. Derryl is logging in now
Xacuter74 OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:12:06 PM)
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Douglas Flannagan (Jul 24, 2011 2:12:15 PM)
and there he is
Xacuter74 OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:12:23 PM)
hello everyone
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:12:30 PM)
Hi X
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:12:30 PM)
Evenin
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:13:28 PM)
Alright. People, catch each other up in PMs please as more folks trickle in. I'm going to get this moving in the interests of getting through everything and still having time to answer any new questions. ^_^
Xacuter74 OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:13:45 PM)
alright
Douglas Flannagan (Jul 24, 2011 2:13:45 PM)
I agree with QF, it sucked that we were spotted instantly, and I disagree with the botched roll disapeared and pulled into the gauntlet to get stuck. But If I may brag, it was a good rp cover.
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:15:00 PM)
well it does show that we were willing to work with what the st threw at us, even if at the time it may not have made sense. or even after the time.
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:15:02 PM)
Precedent set for this in the SI venue with Windseeker. It isn't specifically addressed in the books, for "peeking spirit-side". And the roll was to get out -before- the allotted time expired, as that might have taken hours or days. It is well-within the book's canon and within the venue's rules here, as it's an ST's call on the consequences of a botch in nearly everything. Also, so close to the City, he ruled it gained the attention of the local spirits. Which would likely be Weaver, thanks to the location.
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:15:44 PM)
I covered that in the letter Ducky. Just so you know Dastai, players not in my pack didn't see the letter I sent you. But yeah, peering through the gauntlet shouldn't result in being stuck -in- the gaultlet. I felt it was just Blk doing what he had to do to get the Weaver's attention so he could spring that ambush on us. (was typing, catching up)
Xacuter74 OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:15:49 PM)
i aleready know what this is about. and if my imput is needed i am hee to give it
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:15:52 PM)
Ahh.
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:16:52 PM)
and when you botch your only half in and half out we were completly in from the view point of the others
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:16:59 PM)
Can you tell me where peeking is addressed specifically? Because I can't find it anywhere. it addresses crossing and peering in the same text. I've never seen a scene where peeking resulted in physical consequences on this site or on RoD
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:17:15 PM)
Again, as I just stated, the book doesn't specify, and Windseeker's apparently run scenes where the exact same thing has happened. So that was Blk's experience with it and what he went with. As there is no rule to say it "shouldn't" occur, as you suggest there is, it's ultimately up to him. And he went with what Windseeker had done in the past, here on SI.
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:17:37 PM)
okay
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:18:22 PM)
Is it what I would necessarily have done? No. But it is not against canon or House rules at all, and I'm not a WtA ST.
Krystal Hamilton (Jul 24, 2011 2:18:32 PM)
The mention of peeking is very obscure
Krystal Hamilton (Jul 24, 2011 2:18:34 PM)
however
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:18:39 PM)
Exactly the problem.
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:18:47 PM)
The books don't say.
Krystal Hamilton (Jul 24, 2011 2:18:55 PM)
on page 226 at the very bottom it speaks of what happens when yo ubotch a roll to step sideways
Douglas Flannagan (Jul 24, 2011 2:18:56 PM)
That makes sense. Is it possible to have that added to the house rules section to avoid further confusion? I personally feel it was less trying to get the weavers attention and more a quick thinking result of a botch.
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:19:20 PM)
page 177
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:19:25 PM)
Well, even if its "permissable", doesn't it seem convenient that he did all this research on MiBs and then made every "choice" permitted by the book to get us into that ambush? It seemed like his actions pointed us at that scene. Anyway.
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:19:26 PM)
Doug, you're welcome to take that up with Gabby. I don't dictate what house rules should be in my HSTs venues.
Krystal Hamilton (Jul 24, 2011 2:19:36 PM)
On a botch, the character may get trapped in the patter web, appear in the midst of a spirit storm or simly vanish for a while
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:19:38 PM)
peeking. seems only to be from umbra tp physical
Douglas Flannagan (Jul 24, 2011 2:20:36 PM)
Not a problem. I'll FPM her after the meeting to see if she will add it if its the standard the sts use.
Krystal Hamilton (Jul 24, 2011 2:20:38 PM)
In my exprience online, most storytellers tend to group stepping sideways with peeking as far as reactions and concenquences. So the idea of us getting trapped. I understood why we got sucked into the gauntlet and became stuck
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:20:39 PM)
if it is going to stand as a house rule then it should be posted as such. IMO
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:20:57 PM)
I didn't say it was a House Rule Ravnos.
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:21:21 PM)
I said what Blk chose to do had precedent in this venue under another ST, and that there is no canon or house rule contradicting it.
Krystal Hamilton (Jul 24, 2011 2:21:37 PM)
ahh found peeking page 233 core
Myndwhisper OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:21:52 PM)
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Xacuter74 OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:21:57 PM)
i think what they are saying Dastai is ST ruling should be posted so players know the new rule is in effect we are not asking you to change it but maybe bring it up to the venue heads in partiular
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:22:03 PM)
It was my impression from past experience that peeking results in Mental consequences. Confusion, something relating to what you're able to see. Like maybe your -sight- being trapped in the gauntlet, which isn't really the same thing as your body, which is far more intrusive to the Gauntlet Web. You're right its not defined. I think he made that choice to satisfy an agenda.
Abraham Bradley (Jul 24, 2011 2:22:09 PM)
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Douglas Flannagan (Jul 24, 2011 2:22:13 PM)
Right. And a rule backed by the house in precident should be motioned to move to a house rule to avoid further confusion right?
Xacuter74 OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:22:24 PM)
correct
Abraham Bradley (Jul 24, 2011 2:22:35 PM)
(oh... this not an ic office, sorry)
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:22:40 PM)
Yes in the past it was a mental effect when I botched a peeking. And I believe windseeker did it that way for me.
Abraham Bradley (Jul 24, 2011 2:22:50 PM)
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Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:23:10 PM)
I agree with ducky that something like that needs definition. I don't think that was reasonable and we had no reason to expect those consequences.
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:23:14 PM)
If the players wish a house rule to be created, you should take it up with the HST. As that is solely her purview. I am not going to write rules for the venues, that is not what I am here for. *chuckles*
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:23:42 PM)
understandable a Gabby as already refused to post a ruling in regards to character generation.
Xacuter74 OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:23:49 PM)
so can we actually move to the meat of the complaint instead of arguing the nitty-gritty i have alot of homework to do and not a lot of time for extra complaints
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:24:33 PM)
( i will stop commenting now)
Douglas Flannagan (Jul 24, 2011 2:24:48 PM)
Not a problem Das, like I mentioned before, I'll FPM her to see if it can be added. Next up?
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:24:49 PM)
Xacuter, I was asked to answer a Number of concerns with these scenes. If there's a particular answer you'd like to see before you log, please tell me. But I do intend to cover all of it.
Myndwhisper OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:25:03 PM)
Dastai, would you please pm me?
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:26:00 PM)
I spoke my peace on this. I just hope that because its not specifically disallowed that its automatically allowed. But it was one small piece of the complaint and I'm good with moving on.
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:26:29 PM)
Then i would ask one question, lets get to the end results, if there is no compromise for anything then we already heard all the justifications first hand. and no one has to waste time listening to rejustification. (this is meant only to shorten time and not to be an attack)
Krystal Hamilton (Jul 24, 2011 2:26:43 PM)
As far as it goes witht he umbra scene, we botched and the storyteller used crative rights on how the botch took effect. It was same and equal for both theurges that botched the scene. He was even nice enough to let us the following turn leave the umbra. it could have been much worse for us.
Xacuter74 OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:26:46 PM)
alright, i would also like black spiral here to i think he should be able to answer his specific questions. this doesnt solve anything i personally think he did a great job and feel thois is simply a way for other players to escape consequences when they had every oppurtunity to say something post scene
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:27:03 PM)
we did x
Xacuter74 OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:27:14 PM)
no you did not i was there too
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:27:20 PM)
he had to leave
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:27:33 PM)
and post scene can be the next day
Xacuter74 OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:27:50 PM)
yeah buit not 2 weeks later or a month later.
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:28:01 PM)
this is a result of ongoing discussions
Xacuter74 OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:28:14 PM)
of course it is ravnos.
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:28:16 PM)
that have moved up the chain of command
Douglas Flannagan (Jul 24, 2011 2:28:24 PM)
I agree with Krys as far as the effect. And it was covered IC and despite suspision there wasn't any real repercussions to vanishing people. All and all I say it was well done, but needs to be clarified in the future.
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:29:03 PM)
Xacuter, I am responding to something I got wind of some time ago. It just took me time to track down the information needed for a complete answer to the long list of issues some players had in the scene.
Finn Bailey (Jul 24, 2011 2:29:03 PM)
wait a second. xacuter, why are you accusing people of things?
Xacuter74 OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:30:00 PM)
i am not accusing, i am pointing out that had no one died we wouldnt be here. its because the end result was different that we are all here now wasting our time
Finn Bailey (Jul 24, 2011 2:30:10 PM)
i don't really like the negative smear of your saying people just don't like consequences.
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:30:11 PM)
i was expeting to die
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:30:23 PM)
if the st sets up a kill box with no compromise then that is an issue
Xacuter74 OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:30:24 PM)
its the truth
Douglas Flannagan (Jul 24, 2011 2:30:25 PM)
I was expecting to die.
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:30:29 PM)
They did not wait to raise issues, they went through proper channels, and that takes time. Especially when the Admin in question gets sidetracked by organizing a new venue and setting up perms and forums etc. >_< For which, I'd like to apologize.
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:30:45 PM)
X, things are done wrong in every scene. In -this- scene many things were done wrong, rules were abused or at the very least taken far more canon and with far more liberties than usual... and it resulted in two character deaths.
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:31:25 PM)
That's your opinion QF, and you're welcome to it, but X.. for the record, I agree that this would not have been an issue if there hadn't been deaths.
Xacuter74 OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:31:26 PM)
in whose opinion Q? as far as i can see maybe a few obscure rules that are generally lest to ST interpretation
Xacuter74 OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:31:41 PM)
thanks d :)
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:31:45 PM)
i wouldnt have had an issue if it was only me that died
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:31:50 PM)
Yes it is but I also feel I justified it. People don't have to agree.
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:32:44 PM)
but after listening and reviewing things from what had happened, the flowing natur of pc involvement and the upper level of escalation that Blackspirla did while not following a standard progression of MIB escalation has lead to this inquiry
Douglas Flannagan (Jul 24, 2011 2:32:47 PM)
I actually disagree with QF. I think that Frenzies happen and people die. Such is garou life ya know. The dead where honored even after some arguement were even burried where they wanted to rest.
Krystal Hamilton (Jul 24, 2011 2:33:11 PM)
Big D, is it possible to get a copy of the logs, the scene is shakey at best in my mind.
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:34:08 PM)
I.. >_< I would have to heavily edit the logs on every entry. As in the ST logs of events, all your IP addresses show, and that's a breach of privacy.
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:34:08 PM)
Its the extreme and permanent results that caused me to raise a voice, yes. I don't complain about every little mistake. We accept that people aren't perfect and this isn't even the perfect venue for a game. Its exactly that this had such extreme results from so many issues that I said something. otherwise yes, I'd not have said anything. At least not like this. When this started, I spoke directly to BlkSprl about things I didn't like. Over the following couple days I found out just how much was wrong that I didn't even initially know about. So I complained.
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:35:34 PM)
I am willing to sit and edit out the IPs, but it's not something I could do -right now- to forward you a copy, if that makes sense?
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:35:41 PM)
Dastai - can i have a quick pm. or my answer in chat for all from before?
Krystal Hamilton (Jul 24, 2011 2:35:45 PM)
no worries
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:35:51 PM)
Doug, you're right. But that isn't an excuse to avoid the rules. Characters CAN die. My characters have died and I was satisifed with those results. Not this time.
Krystal Hamilton (Jul 24, 2011 2:35:59 PM)
as long as my renown is not docked for the outcome I have no major issue.
Finn Bailey (Jul 24, 2011 2:36:24 PM)
i feel like right or wrong, saying anything just made us look bad. as stated by xacuter. I think it's pointless to raise questions or ask for anyone to take a look. no matter what the truth is saying anything just equals whiners.
Xacuter74 OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:36:38 PM)
ok. in your opinion are you privy to the thoughts of the runnong ST? perhaps we lynch the HST to for questionable calls in our mind? Honestly i feel this should stand and would be a detriment to the chat as a whole to set the precedant. sure he made some mistakes sure he may have bent a few rules. but he is a st and many of us survived for another day. it his perrogitive top set the bar according to the diffculty of the encounter. with 2 adrens and 3 or 4 fosterns what he set out was a decent challenge for the group in the end scene. honestly i am surprised we all lived to talk about it
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:37:23 PM)
by tthe time the majority of you were able to log in for a pre scene set up. you had the numbers to deal with the situation.
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:37:39 PM)
so of ocurse you survived. you were not penalized in any way for that scene
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:37:42 PM)
Ravnos, your question assumed there would be no compromise. I am willing to compromise if given reason. I admit though, in what I was given, there is not reason to overturn the events of the scene. Is there anything you want added that wasn't included in QF's letter?
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:37:47 PM)
He made a lot of mistakes and outright ignored rules. And we were talking with Blk during the scene in PM -about- the rules he was ignoring. I didn't choose to do this out of the blue.
Xacuter74 OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:37:51 PM)
yes that is called scene p[rogression
Douglas Flannagan (Jul 24, 2011 2:38:07 PM)
See I guess I'm confused, that is why I am here. I think the scene was ran well, I don't feel the Rules were thrown out or anything. I mean in all fairness, Finn should have died as well, being the one frenzied, she should have kept attacking until I dropped her. But she was let to spend WP and bring her self out of it.
Finn Bailey (Jul 24, 2011 2:38:35 PM)
Mistakes and bent rules are fine as long as it's not your character. there were so called survivors in the scene who were never once even attacked. and I agree. Finn should have died. and no, i wasn't allowed to.
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:38:37 PM)
no than at this point i=since everything was clearly spelled out, and you stated that you cannot even request the hst to put precedent into house rule to prevent future problems. I will be leaving the site.
Krystal Hamilton (Jul 24, 2011 2:38:39 PM)
If we could get back to topic on hand. I feel each of you are more than able to lodge your concerns which is why Big D is here. To hear you out. In my past experience she has been amazing even if you dont like the outcome of the decision. What I feel strongly on is I dont like retconning scenes and I dont feel my pack should be punished with renown hits if the scene is wiped out. We were there, I almost died more from my own people than the baddies, I dont feel the scene should be replayed. Nor do I feel its fair to take it from us as well.
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:38:40 PM)
Doug, according to Thisbe, you complained about the scene.
Finn Bailey (Jul 24, 2011 2:38:43 PM)
I tried 3 times. and was told i couldn't
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:39:12 PM)
das has already said that das cant do anything
Finn Bailey (Jul 24, 2011 2:39:13 PM)
i tried to roll to change targets, rolled and still attacked allies.
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:39:16 PM)
Ravnos, I can request it, but so can you. I am here to sort out the OOC issues.
Xacuter74 OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:39:29 PM)
finn whatr is your rage?
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:39:50 PM)
so what is the point of reviewing anything if no future house rules canbe set in place to prevent complaints of cries of foul. So that this situation will not occur again.
Finn Bailey (Jul 24, 2011 2:40:07 PM)
3
Douglas Flannagan (Jul 24, 2011 2:40:14 PM)
There were things I disagreed with QF of course. I disagree with a lot of things, The power of the NPCs, the lack of stealth actions, the oddity of being trapped in the gauntlet instead of being kicked out...etc.
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:40:14 PM)
i have made a request but as a player, it was ignored, As above everyone else your word has more weight
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:40:15 PM)
My point is that if you'd like a House Rule set up, I'm not the one who will write them. The rules I write govern OOC behavior on the site, for both players and STs.
Xacuter74 OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:40:15 PM)
what is your gnosis?
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:40:26 PM)
X, her rage is 3 and her Gnosis was 2. Wait a second and let me explain something...
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:40:34 PM)
now if your staff cant listen to you then that is a problem with management and another indication that the site is not for me
Finn Bailey (Jul 24, 2011 2:40:40 PM)
at the time it was 2
Xacuter74 OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:40:40 PM)
ok sahe would be indescrimante in her targeting
Krystal Hamilton (Jul 24, 2011 2:40:49 PM)
I think that has to go to the HST Rav. Its her job to set the House Rules and I agree as complaints come up the rules should be made and set to avoid it in the furture.
Finn Bailey (Jul 24, 2011 2:40:49 PM)
not according to the book
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:40:54 PM)
It's not a matter of them not listening. *chuckles* It's that I would not demand it.
Finn Bailey (Jul 24, 2011 2:40:59 PM)
with spent wp you can change a target,
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:41:05 PM)
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:41:24 PM)
Xacuter74 OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:41:27 PM)
Finn Bailey (Jul 24, 2011 2:41:31 PM)
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:41:48 PM)
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:41:52 PM)
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:41:54 PM)
Ravnos OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:41:58 PM)
Xacuter74 OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:42:10 PM)
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:42:17 PM)
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:42:21 PM)
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:42:27 PM)
Xacuter74 OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:42:52 PM)
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:42:53 PM)
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:43:09 PM)
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:43:10 PM)
Xacuter74 OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:43:11 PM)
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:43:50 PM)
Quantum Fool OOC (Jul 24, 2011 2:44:17 PM)
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:44:54 PM)
Krystal Hamilton (Jul 24, 2011 2:45:13 PM)
Dastai (Jul 24, 2011 2:45:26 PM)
Douglas Flannagan (Jul 24, 2011 2:47:02 PM)
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first, For some reason SB did XP for about half the players -before- the moot. She did Morgans. She didn't do Finn's, Evie's or Riddles....
the poiint is the players can not get the sts to set rules in stone.
according to the book you would attack anyone oincluding pack if your gnosis does not equal or exceed rage
he let me roll a dice, and i still went after allies. so, why would you spend wp, roll to change an attack on an ally, only to then attack an ally?
The book says yes, without that Gnosis increase she'd attack indescriminantly, with higher Rage... HOWEVER, you can spend WP not to.
I've seen Gabby make a number of House Rules based on player concerns and requests.
but it wont matter. I appreciate that you took the time to talk to players. But for me this is pointless.
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unless you are in a berserk or thrall
Wrong.
QF, on the frenzy..
That's under "Berserk" Frenzy.
of course QF you have to be right...
The book allows you to spend a willpower to avoid a Specific target. It's meant to be a character's last recourse..to spare a Mate, or their Alpha etc.
It is not a "spend willpower and pick who you want to hit".
I am right. What's the point of saying you can spend WP if the ST ignores it?
again at ST discretion
And at the time of the Frenzy, there were more of you, than there were more-opportune targets in her reach.
I understand that Dastai, but she was denied the use of WP for several rounds. She used WP and was forced to attack the same target afterward, no roll. This was Blk making arbitrrary decisions to support his agenda.
QF, you have been talking about Blk's "Agenda" repeatedly in this conversation. What possible end would his "agenda" have served?
Hey D, can I get a pm?
Other than a migraine, what has he to gain from killing any of you? *chuckles*
*puts on his tinfoil hat and grabs his copy of catcher in the rye* He is a government plant hell bent on destroying a single PC using coded messages from cartoons!
Again i think the scene should stand. do you have specific questions for me Dastai?
None whatsoever Xacuter. Thank you for your time. I am solely here to answer the concerns that were raised. ^_^
It doesn't matter. obviously there's no way anything's going to be changed, I don't know if anything should be. I appreciate it being looked into, and for the players' concern. Thanks for your insults and opinion, xacuter.
ok thanks
Okay to put it briefly, his first decison to "catch us in the gauntlet" showed he wanted us to aggitate the Weaver. Then we agreed we were going to have a short scene at the warehouse to wait for Krys, Ducky and others. He -knew- this is why we were doing it. I asked for a Safe place and he misled me about it to have a place to run this ambush which he obviously researched in spite of this being a mission against the Wyrm. When we got there as soon as Riddle arrived (but for some reason Krys and Ducky didn't, even though they were with us), we got ambushed. 8 MiBs when the book says 4 was the next progression.... He attacked the same 3 characters over and over contradicting his own logic for why he did so. Other characters were completely ignored in this effort. And when the enemy was waning and about to die, he attacked three characters -not- attacking his MiBs, instead of those that were. His reason to have attacked Evie 16-19 times if 4-5 rounds (I lost count).
If that's not an agenda to kill characters to justify his "dangerous scene", what is?
oh god he was running a challenging scene. covered that
Your opinin is noted X. it wasn't a challenging scene. It was a kill room.
you know what?
what reason do you have to be a jerk, xacuter?
QF. First off, it's not Blk's fault your folks rolled 3 botches in 5 minutes. Nor is it something he could have planned... Hey. Guys. Cool it.
Hey guys, it is a passionate topic on both ends. All sides feel justification as to their feelings on the matter. Please lets keep it courteous and mature for D's sake so we can work to a resolution.
You are forgetting one small detal QF. Me and Krys were late getting to the scene because of RL stuff, we weren't there searching for the safe house and all that. So when we arrived, we were allowed to enter instead of having our pcs ghosted.
Actually it could be. He asked for Diff 9. That's inner city Diff. This was a suburb. And him deciding they were caught in the gauntlet rather than what's been customary is because he wanted to use those botches for that purpose. If it wasn't that time, it would have been later.
Would it be more fair if Me and Krys while not physically able to play our PCs were there getting attacked so we log in and were dead?
Second, you were not misled about it being a safe place. You brought a MiB with a communicator (which was in plain sight, described twice in the scene, and NO ONE bothered to remove or disable.) and a Technocracy vehicle (Lo Jack has nothing on the Weaver.) to the "safe" place.. At which point, it was no longer Safe.
And at diff 9, no one chose to spend willpower.
agreed on all fronts here
Doug, I understand that. But why does that affect IC? I talked to Blk about this in PM and we agreed, at least there, that we were waiting for you. So raather than just interrogate the MiB and kill him, I asked for a -safe- place and he misled me to beleive we were in accord.
As for the MiBs, it says they respond in those numbers, it does not say they can't skip up a level when the level of threat requires it.
Dastai... he said outright "the warehouse will block his radio signals". That's misleading. I was given no roll to know that didn't matter, and we were waiting on our two most exprienced Theurges who would have an even better chance to know this.
As stated above, you brought surveillance (the car and the MiB) in with you.
and the threat level was pretty high
But you know what? I'm not going to argue. If you've ruled, I guess we're done. No angst. I see this as pointless, just as Ravnos said. The ST broke the rules. And he's being allowed.
The ST didn't break the rules.
he did a great job in the situation presented
He made, in all of the complaints and concerns raised, 2 mistakes. One of which he apologized for to you already.
We disagree, Das.
Those mistakes by themselves were significant given it was 6 on 2 in the first round, with enemies doing agg damage 3 times a round at range. Which was also a fubar on his part.
That's why I'm trying to answer all those concerns QF. And, instead you've devolved into arguing among yourselves. Far from the large group of dissatisfied players you presented to me in your letter, it seems there are perhaps 3 of you with an issue in the scene.
if the ST says "this will block the radio signals" that's saying "you found a safe place". Considering I didn't even have to do this scene, I think that sucks.
I'm not arguing. I said we're done.
We don't have to do this. We don't have to argue.
hell i expected Derryl top die being a ahroun and one of two of the lowest ranking there givin the threat rating i
I wasn't trying to argue. I was trying to answer the points you raised in your letter.
But you haven't. He ignored Finn's use of WP by the book. Sure he CAN tell her who to attack, but why did he? Why did he refuse to let her reroll at the very least?
Dastai can we have the official ruling? or is that still being debated? i held off doing renown to wait for this issue to be resolved
All told he cost us 7-8 rounds worth of attacks, I think on purpose.
why xacuter? what does it have to do with you or your renown?
Let's try this. Those who do -not- have an issue with the scene as is, please leave the room. And Xacuter, currently nothing is being changed, proceed with renown as planned. IF anything should be changed, your requests will stand as they are.
I'll let Gabby know.
you seem to have a pretty high stake in this. why?
ok thank you Das. wish you luck on this :)
You're welcome.
what a jerk.
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I need to go do research, please excuse me."
Of course.
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I am sorry you did not have the scene outcome you wished QF and Finn. I hope a resoultion can be found. have a good day.
its ok.
Evening Krys.
Evening.
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Im sticking around because I do agree with the WP exenditure issue.
Excellent. I'll settle that first then.
It was more than that Doug. If you want a copy of the letter I can send it to you, but its long. Rather than X arguing not knowing what the complaint was about. *head desk*
if you could that would be great. I don't have a copy of the letter.
Willpower in a Frenzy is meant to be a last-ditch effort to spare someone's life. Literally an internal "OH GOD NOT THAT ONE!" moment, when you find your helpless Mate or a child in front of you in a Frenzy.
i don't get why he was even here, or why he was allowed to insult so much
Or to avert the killing blow to a packmate tc.
etc.
right so a last ditch effort wouldn't be my attacking my brother?
And Finn.
For the same reason that I allowed you to call him a Jerk without warning you.
he started out insulting us
saying we were just people who didn't want to face consequences
Yeah, and she was forced to attack Riddle over and over, Then Krystal, then Ducky. Not the enemy, not even once. And then while each of them was occupied with her, they too were not attacking the enemy. Don't you think that makes a HUGE difference in the scene?
see. i guess my thought has always been you can drop out of a frenzie with an expenditure of a wp. But I'll admit that I could be wrong about that.
It seems it's a pretty hot topic, and frankly, I'm not your mother.
She was given the option to drop out of the frenzy before attacking anyone, by spending a Wpr.
Finn chose NOT to.
no i wasn't.
i asked him in pm if i could change my target with spending wp,
It's the rules on a Frenzy. Even if you get the 4 sux on rage, or rage back, you can spend a willpower immediately to avoid the frenzy.
he said no, but to roll a dice, i did, i attacked jeremy. when i asked again he said he was rolling the dice without chargingme the wp to see who i attacked, ok great
No Doug, that much you can't do. But spending WP its pretty clear lets you "not" attack someone in favor of someone else. Gabby used this rule herself in the Sept Defense scene on the dirt side when she let Hans use WP to attack Spirals rather than Allies.
except what is the point of spending wp to stop or change an attack only to not stop or change the attack?
Why didn't you just spend the willpower when you frenzied, not to be in a frenzy?
Rather than trying to aim a frenzying wolf?
i asked if i could spend wp. he said no
i thought i could spend it on my next round,
Let me double check, because that is not what's in the log.
but i was told i couldn't.
She was in Berserk Frenzy due to injury. She couldn't spend WP not to be in Frenzy. And if she could have, she wasn't allowed to.
ok please do because if i'm remembering wrong i apologize
Dastai, please remember a lot of this discussion at the time was in PM.
So unless the site keeps PM logs it won't be clear. But we -did- bring this to his attention, repeatedly. He ignored us.
So her frenzy wasn't a botched rage roll but more a rage heal frenzy?
No, Finn dropped below incapacitated, so this was her "Stay Active" roll, which she succeeded.
That is what I mean. Forced frenzy due to injurty/death. Not her rage got away from her trying to harness the wolf for more awesome
that point I didn't understand, thank you for clarifying
np. Trust me, I looked this up in the book and then Gabby tried to imply she can attack whoever the ST says, even though he ignored her trying to spend WP for several rounds.
also i am not used to much combat so i ask about everything
brb
I can see your point. But upon this new information I can still see the outcome. I mean we were all in hand to hand or close proximity.so logic would state that from a frenzied mind you couldn't really tell fuzzy guy from suit guy as its an orgy of blood and violence.
did you shoot me that letter qf?
Okay, Raging back from Incap, no wpr can be spent to avoid the frenzy, which is actually something Blk thought she could do. *chuckles* So she was in the Frenzy, and was permitted to spend wpr to change a target.. *scrolling through the logs*
She attacked MiBs in her frenzy first.. got a few shots off at them..
spent rage.. and when the mib's were gone, switched targets to Sphinx.
Doug, if Finn attacked the enemy even twice in those rounds, especially considering that aside from Riddle, MiB#2 was closest to her according to Blk, and then Riddle were able to be healing, and you were able to be fighting... don't you think a number of extra rounds of attack would have ended that a lost faster? Not to forget Evie lost an attack in the 1st round by Blks admission.
On what looks like her third round in the frenzy.
Finn Bailey (Jun 27, 2011 1:37:27 AM)
Unfortunately, in the rage as she is, she continues to attack, and the next closest body is sphinx. so she attacks her brother (sorry! 4 sux to attack 4 damage)
I don't recall her attacking an MiB but as I said, I didn't have caps. So okay, she got one attack in. But she should have been allowed to use WP from the first round.
first round of frenzy I mean.
She got 2 rounds of attacks on MiBs first hon.
She also attacked Riddle at least once, twice I think and put HIM into Frenzy and he died soon after between the wounds she gave him and him being shot by MiBs. (and while still ignoring most of the other wolves to do so)
Finn Bailey (Jun 27, 2011 1:43:37 AM)
Chases sphinx with a bloody snarl and attacks (i'm so sorry 6 sux to strike 7damage)
Then in answer to you QF... if she attacked even twice on the MIB would it matter? According to Dastai she did. So I am sticking with no. We brought a pack of scouts to a war.
I'd say the biggest problem is the DR. I mean she hit sphinx once for 7 agg. that has to suck.
So 2 rounds of attacks on MiBs, 2 rounds on Sphinx..I'm scrolling through some more here.
because in pms he was telling me i had to.
I admit I was wrong. That' doesn't change that her attacks on Sphinx and on Krystal, and on You were right.
see?
And then gunfire finished him off.
gunfire ignoring KS, Morgan and how many other wolves actually attacking MiBs? Not to mention Evie getting shot for standing up while he ignored everyone else.
Which brings up another point. Evie wasn't dropped below incapacitated but he made me roll Stay Active too, which I failed (not botched). Evie wasn't dead, by his own admission. She was incapacitated. later when she stood up she was shot again before even able to act, just for standing. This time she went below Incapacitated and this should have been her first Stay Active roll. Instead, she was pronouced dead with no roll.
i asked each round, if i could spend wp to change targets he said roll a die. so i did, he never charged me wp at all, and said later he rolled to see who i attacked without charging me wp. ok fine. but if i had been allowed to actually spend the rp to even just stop attacking, as i did at the very final, after asking each time, i would have
Krys was a turn too late to get to heal him. And QF, the gunfire ignored KS at that point because he'd logged out.
each time i posted an attack it was because i was told i had to
Normally, you can't spend Wpr to Stop Attacking in a frenzy, Finn.
He probably felt bad because Sphinx had died and didn't want Finn to kill more of yo.
you.
But that's sheer conjecture. As I said. Canon states you can spend a wpr to avert an attack from a specific target.
He should have let her spend WP the first round when the rule was brought to his attention. If he made Finn attack a packmate, refusing her WP, its because he wanted to. He had no other reason.
if he gave you the dice roll without spending WP that is actually a good thing. Care to enlighten us on what would happen if she was frenzied and have zero WP QF?
yeah i'm sure he did because i tried to spend the wp to not attack him at all and was told no 3 times.
QF. One moment. I know you have a laundry list of issues. I'm trying to get those with fewer concerns set so we're not taking up -everyone's- time. ALright?
sorry Das.
It's alright.
well, i would have spent the wp to change a target. he didn't let me spend it and no matter what dice i rolled i attacked jeremy.
Doug, that was a bridge we would cross when we got to it. The fight may have been over before she ran out of WP. Who knows. We werne't allowed.
As for that, you had 2 actions on Sphinx. Blk tells me he'd just been rolling a die to see who you hit, and going down a list to find the name. And I sadly don't have PM logs to verify the discussions between you two. He said you didn't change targets -from- Sphinx, that you just kept asking to pick a target and the Wpr roll doesn't work that way. >_<
It sounds like that was a major failure in communication.
a fight with a bunch of MIBs, where you had 1 ahroun and no war totem benefits. And you think it would have been over before Finn spent 3WP? I'm sorry man. I don't see the logic.
So how does it work, according to him? Waht's the point of spending WP if the ST ignores it?
i should have taken screencaps.
And I will bring it up with Blk to make sure he's clear on the matter, that you can spend Wpr to get a -different- random target, rather than rolling on the same list with the original target's name still on it.
i guess lesson learned
no i never once said can i pick a new target
i said can i spend wp to change my target
Screenshots are your friend, sadly, that much is true. Blk just rerolled it on the same list and got the same result. *nods*
And Doug, this was a recon scene. There shouldn't have even BEEN an ambush if Blk didn't mislead me to think we were on the same page, killing time waiting for you guys. Look man, he wanted kills. Period. And then he used those kills to kill the whole SL. Take it how ever you want it. This is supposed to be fun. That wasn't. Your cahracter survived so whatever.
he said no. he said roll a die, and whala i got the same target?
how random is that, every time?
Das, I didn't think to cap my own PMs because I had no idea he was going to pull this. I trusted him. My bad/.
It's nto a matter of trust, QF.
it damned well should be. *sigh*
Finn, I don't have the list he was looking at.
i personally do not think that he intentionally killed or wanted to screw anyone or anything.
I don't think so either. As ultimately, that wouldn't accomplish anything for Him anyway.
right, well if i rolled a 1 and got jeremy, and the next time rolled something else and got ... surprise jeremy.. i mean, why couldn't i have just used wp?
I don't know that part, as it didn't happen in the main window or the dieroller on the chat. I have no record of it Finn, I'm sorry.
i just think he maybe did make some mistakes and wont admit it, can't admit it, whatever.
He did admit a mistake, to Evie and apologized already.
it's ok. i should have screencapped it all. i just am uncomfortable with combat and it takes everything just to keep up.
Even if my character didn't make it out I would have had fun man. There were issues of course, but there always is man. I can't speak on the misleading and the killing time, because to be honest, if I was running it I either would have started it late when me and Krys showed up or not allowed Me Krys and Derryl to show up.
This looks like the third one in the scene so far, so you have my sincere apology for that. I'd tender them to Sphinx as well, but it seems he's gone.
I don't think he killed anyone out of specific malice. But in the last rounds where Evie and Riddle died, why did he concentrate fire on us two and Finn? Why was Keening Sorrow never attacked even once? Morgan only once. In all that. Are they not 9-foot killing machines too? He targetted the three of us worst off... to get kills. Maybe it wasn't to kill Evie specifically. But he did. That's my feeling and its not changing, whatever happens here.
Men In Black (Jun 27, 2011 1:56:10 AM)
~MiB 2, Shoot x3 Evie ~ MiB 3 Shoot x3Krystal ~ MiB 4 Shoot x3 Sphinx ~ MiB 8 Shoot x3 Doug ~ MiB 9 Grab gun Shoot Derryl~
I can't have fun in an unfair game, Doug. I don't care if I die in a fair scene. This wasn't fairly run. He did what he had to do to get the results he wanted. Taht's not fun, that's a waste of our time.
That was the STs declare of actions for the round Sphinx died.
So... to clarify, you don't feel that he killed out of spite or malice. But he wanted kills in general and you Evie and Riddle drew the short straw?
He didn't have multiple MiBs attack any one Garou. So please stop saying he did.
Yeah, I got shot three times for standing up even while other Garou were actually attacking them. Riddle was in Frenzy. Why attack either of us? Why not attack those of us who were actually attacking them?
I didn't say he had multiple attack us. I said he attacked us, when we werne't even a threat.
and it looks like they all got three shots, using standard pistol rolls except the one on D who had to get his gun. Also I would say this falls under the "shoot them while they are down" tactic. I do it all the time. Stay on target till it stops squirming, then move on.
Evie had spent a round down and this round she just stood up, and bang-bang-bang.
The next round: Men In Black (Jun 27, 2011 2:30:14 AM)
~MiB~ 2 Shoot x3 Evie~ 3 Shoot x3 Krystal~ 4 Shoot x3 Krystal ~ 9 Shoot x1 Derryl ~
Krys was taking the lion's share of fire. NOT Evie.
so... its hard to believe that if you shoot something until it drops. Then it gets back up to go "oh shit" and shoot at it some more?
I don't know what round that was. Evie took 6 shots earlier in the fight. Evie took at least 3 attacks every round of that thing. Keening was -never- attacked. Morgan was attacked once. The round Evie died, she didn't (couldn't) attack anyone.
Yeah Doug, because there was no one else attacking them. And keeping in mind if Finn wasn't attacking packmates and allies most rounds, might those MiB be dead by later in the fight?
The last two. Those are the declares for the last two rounds. Those that you -just- said were focused on Evie.
At least the last two Evie was involved in.
The three surviving MiBs gave the other Trueborn a bit of hell after that..but those rounds you claim you were unfairly attacked are the two declares I just posted.
Dastai, I never said that. I'm sorry if I was misunderstood. I said Evie was attacked every round except the round she was on the ground. Other garou were ignored. the logic for attacking Evie was "she was doing damage". Keening Sorrow and Morgan did no damage? They were unworthy of attention.
randomly attacking packmates and allies based on a single dice roll.
as well as has been proven that the same random dice roll benefitted the frenzied garou (attacking enemies) already twice, possibly more.
Your quote: I don't think he killed anyone out of specific malice. But in the last rounds where Evie and Riddle died, why did her concentrate fire on us two and Finn? Why was Keening sorrow..etc etc. Scroll up. It's still on the screen, QF.
Doug, whcih again ignores the WP note. But I give up. I know what I saw. But whatever. It seems no matter what I say, I'm not getting any agreement. And that's fine.
He didn't concentrate fire on you two at all.
And at that point, as I said, KS had Logged from the scene.
So he wasn't a target.
Okay remove the world "Concentrate". He still attacked wolves not even fighting his MiBs over those that were.
Um, I think KS was in the scene to the end. Wasn't he?
yes
He may have dropped and come back?
i believe so.
Well so I don't come off as antagonistic and stuff, I feel Das answered my concerns about the WP note and stuff. Thanks for hearing my view points. Best of luck guys I hope you find suitable resolution.
anyway, so we're totally wrong?
Whoop, my bad. He'd declared going AFK and then returned.
thanks doug, it's been great playing with you.
Catch you guys on the flippity flop. *hugs and high fives*
Thank you Doug. And yes, I'll discuss the willpower issue with Blk.
*wishes logs had icons so she could see who was where at a glance*
Finn, no you aren't totally wrong. And while I can't prove what happened in the PMs, that won't stop me from talking to Blk about it. I just can't retcon a scene without actual Proof of grevious error. And so far, it looks like 2-3 actual mistakes over the course of a few Days.
grievous even. Can't type.
Anyway, this also brings up another point. Evie, according to Blk, had fallen unconscious. Even though she wasn't. She was incapacitated. When Evie was healed I had to roll Stamina to wake up, which I succeeded (even though she shouldn't have been unconscious). Then I had to roll to shift forms because as of "unconscious" she was in Homid. Now, he told me I couldn't attack that round becuase I had to spend a movement to get to her feet. I asked him outright if I'd still have to use an Action if she shifted Hispo. And he told me yes. But I looked this up yesterday. Hispo to regain footing is reflexive. At this point I don't see the point in arguing... but SO MUCH was done wrong in that scene.
...Incapacitated is Unconscious. Where are you getting that it's not?
Dastai, we can't provide proof. But I felt we provided reasonable proof. Unless you expect players to Screen Cap every moment of every scene, there won't be proof.
I have your complaints QF, and I have the dieroller logs, and the scene logs from all the events in Belfast. And that much is enough to Disprove everything you said or asked except 2-3 issues.
And I am willling to go point by point with you and copy you the chunks of logs or DR etc to answer those concerns.
I'm not here to Argue. I'm here to Answer.
the book makes a distinction between "incapaciated" and "beyond incapacitated" it doesn't say it means you're onconscious. And that's beside the point, hon. I asked him if I shifted to Hispo if she could have gotten up and attacked. I did use Rage to shift and Evie would have known the difference even if the player didn't. I could have maybe killed the MiB that in turn killed her... I'm sure he'd have found a way to stop me from attacking. had me roll to cover the ground... whatever. I'm sorry Das. He did what he did. You don't have to agree.
Beyond incapacitated = Dead without a successful Rage roll.
Incapacitated = Unconscious.
Okay fine. That still doesn't change him telling me in Hispo I couldn't get up.
It takes an action to getup.
That's pretty universal, not sure where the issue is on that one either.
unless you're in a Quadraped form. Its reflexive.
Show me where it says that?
So when he told me it didn't matter what form I was in, he was wrong.
let me get my book
Thanks.
I may have to send you this later. I'm looking, but I'm -sure- about that. this isn't even a major point. But its one of a dozen little points I'm trying to make that add up to him doing what he wanted to do... still looking.
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Alright. Here. I have your letter, and I went through point by point and answered or checked out everything on the list.
You want me to post it?
dastai, honestly, even if you felt that every point or suspicion of wrongdoing or mistakes, etc, were proven. Would anything be changed? I don't think it would be, i do appreciate your looking into it and meeting with us. Maybe we're wrong, maybe it's a mix, I don't know. I just think it could have gone differently and I wish i felt like it was totally fair.
If the concerns and complaints I was sent held up under scrutiny, as the vast majority don't, then yes. I would retcon the death(s) in question and work out some way to ICly explain their return to the venue. As well as pull Blk and Gabby aside to discuss what went down and possibly warn them because of it.
I don't want the letter posted, no. As it is, we've been subject to trolling before and no I don't want to be again.
Ok. Thank you.
But what I am getting over and over, is misremembered issues (like QF's accusation that fire was concentrated on herself or Sphinx, when it wasn't)..and a conspiracy theory where Blk supposedly wants Evie dead.
That's putting it bluntly, obviously. And it didn't stop me from investigating Every painful little detail.
But that, is not enough for me to overturn a scene involving 9+ players.
Blk stonewalled me, making excuses. Gabby supported Blk without evne looking at the situation. She quoted rules erroneously, including the WP rule she herself used differently according to tpo Keening, just days before. She told me that Blk had planned to have more MiBs in that scene, where Blk told me he considered 4 but felt it was too light (why? I don't get that, when it follows the book description of MiBs to send 4). They're not going to tell you anything was done wrong. Blk is going to deny it and Gabby is going to support him.
well i do know she had to soak a crazy amount compared to others.
And again, I am sorry for the willpower issue, I will clarify with Blk and Gabby what should have happened there. But again, 2-3 minor mistakes don't add up to a retcon.
No, QF, it doesn't follow the book's description to send 4.
ok.
Not when they -know- they're facing what..8 Garou? They had eyes and ears on you via the car and the MiB you'd taken. It really does make sense to elevate the threat level correspondingly.
and for the record and for the third time, I mispoke myself saying "concentrate". What I mean is why shoot at wolves NOT fighting the MiBs in favor of shooting wolves that -were-? It goes against Blk's own logic for targetting Evie specifically in the first place. I disagree with you, but you're in charge.
Ah, but he didn't.
Yes, he did.
And if anything...
The fact that 2 of you died and 9 of them died, shows he Did.
He had 6 of us. He ruled the others arrived late because they didn't know where they were. There were 6 of us being tracked. the other 4 arrived later and the MiBs didn't know they were there. In my worthless opinion, since the whole point of the scene was to explore the docks, and that we wouldn't have even let our captive MiB live except for the layover between scenes and waiting for Riddle and Krystal, who we -needed-. And agreed we were killing time, there sholdn't have been an ambush at all. But whatever. If you've made your decision, then I guess we're done.
I'm not going to argue with you. I have no angst for you. I strongly disagree with this whole mess.
I will send you the letter you gave me with the rest of the questions answered.
And I will address the Wpr during Frenzy issue, and pass on the request for a House Rule on the consequences of botching peering through the Veil.
that won't help us. So that doesn't affect my decison to walk away. I'll look for the letter. Thanks. And I'll send that rule about standing in wolf-forms when I find it.
Thank you.
Thanks Dastai. I appreciate your time and attention.
Of course. I'm sorry I can't make everyone happy here. >_< And thank you both for your time today.
This is what I get for trying to help restart the venue. A killer ST wiped out characters and effectively the venue is back to dead. What they say about good deeds, its all true. Maybe you sould ask the STs to actually show up from time to time other than to run scenes. To communicate so they're not running scenes the same characters are involved in at the stame time. And maybe Blk shouldn't be an ST since he clearly doesn't get the game and doesn't show up anyway, but for a rare Forum Post. There's a lot wrong with this site, Das.
If anyone wants a copy of the Log for this conversation, let me know and I'll go through to edit out the IPs and send it out.
QF. relax. it's ok.
Please, and a copy of the log from the scene and the DR log too please?
maybe we're just totally wrong. We shouldn't have said anything anyway.
its cool Finn. I'm relaxed.
Clearly we shouldn't have said anything. Doesn't make us wrong. But I get it.
But maybe we are.
I'll skype them to you once they're edited. As it's 10pm currently, it may not happen until tomorrow or Tues. As I have to go line by line to catch all the logins and logouts.
thanks Das.
To believe we're totally right, is to believe everyone from blk to gabby to dastai doesn't care.
Okay let me say this...
and i don't think that's the case. so maybe we just see it different.
Finn, what's your forum name, I'll send the letter to you as well..
I admitted when I was wrong. I admitted I -could- be wrong about things. The things I'm sure I'm right about, I'm still sure I'm right about. I can't change what the site does about it.
calamity drain
Got it.
Das, Blk thinks the World of Darkness means "STs make it dark by doing bad things". He didn't say so much but that's between the lines. He wanted kills, period. He got them and then killed the SL with it. You can believe that or not. The site ails for it, and for Gabby blindly backing him.
QF, sometimes we're still wrong, even when we don't think we could be. And for the record, I try not to assume what is going on inside the mind of anyone on this site. STs or players. I find it incredibly arrogant to think that I can tell someone else what -they- meant, or thought.
xacuter seems to think the sites just fine, better off even
Das, he made one decision after the other, unerringly leading us to that ambush. he lied to me. .. yes -lied- to me about that location being safe to get us to be in this position in the first place. He routinely ignored some characters to attack others. And when his scene came to its end, he did what he had to, to get kills. I don't know how you can see it any other way. and screw X, I think from the way he was talking he may well be one of the same trolls that harrassed us in the past. He seemed far too invested in arguing about something he didn't know anything about.
Blk did what he wanted to do. He ignored and abused rules. Hell, Finn being "stunned" in the first round. I've NEVER seen that rule enforced. I don't recall any of the MiBs being stunned from damage. He did what he wanted to do. But I should go because I've said all this and gotten no where.
No he didn't lie to you about the location being safe. The -location- was safe. The car you brought with you, changed it to an Unsafe place.
If he wanted kills, he'd have continued letting Finn attack in her frenzy, since it was clearly very effective. Instead, he went -against- the rules to let her Stop.
Das, I talked to him in PMs. We were waiting for characters. He knew this. I told him outright rather than just asking the captive a few questions and killing him, we could do this to kill time. Then he says IC I found a place that would "block their signals". Now, is that not a deception to make me believe we were on the same page? He wanted to do this. He planned for it specifically.
If he'd wanted kills, he'd have rerolled for the specialty every one of those MiBs had. Which..he didn't do till they were down to 3 injured antagonists facing 6 Trueborn.
QF, you want my honest opinion on your actions in that scene?
well, unless the ones he wanted dead were dead. he could stop then. not saying that's what he did. I don't know what i think anymore.
And he was wrong about the Willpower rule and I think taht's the only reason he changed it and he still didnt let her (or even consider letting her) attack the enemy. Usually when an ST asks for a roll to randomize who you attack, they use the room list and tell you what your rolling for. How do we know "6" was Riddle? he kept insisting she attack him, denied her WP, enforced what he wanted to do with shabby reasoning....
Sure. But in giving me your opinion, remember we wanted to interrogate the prisoner and kill him. Keep in mind we were given no rolls to know anything at all about MiB, like we're brand new cubs with no expereince. Das, he did what he wanted to do.
He was wrong about it, and whether he realized it during that scene and that was what caused him to let Finn stop attacking, or whether he just felt bad about killing off a PC, both of those actions speak for an ST who -didn't- want you dead. Don't they?
Yeah, well he was wrong. I disagree with how he changed it but it was already too late. Fact is, he was wrong, several times. It was costly and its not being fixed.
maybe we are wrong, maybe we're mistaken, maybe both sides are wrong, i don't know. What i know is there's no way anythings going to be changed and we're just making ourselves look bad by arguing.
Nah, I'm just standing up for myself. That doesn't make me look bad, it makes me look like I feel wronged, and I do. In two days no one will remember this anyway. No one will notice me not being here and I have no desire to talk about it.
At this point I don't even want it fixed because I don't trust the site. I sure as hell don't trust Blk or Gabby. So I can't play here even if you do change it .
I asked for scenes in good faith and I got bad faith in return.
He made maybe 2-3 mistakes in the entire scene QF. That's It. As for you: You never once -asked- for a roll to figure out what you were dealing with. Not One of you. You never tried to secure the area or guard the warehouse once you arrived. You never used the talens you had that could have provided early warning of an attack. You didn't remove the MiBs visible headset during the entire ride there or your questioning. You had the MiB talking to you strangely, arguing with you as if he was part of an organization, and not Once did you do anything to protect yourselves in case he was telling the truth. You milled about the place in the -heart of the Weaver's territory- an industrial warehouse, without even posting a watch. You're Garou, the city is enemy territory, but no one acted as if it were. And there were consequences.
I have to ask? Other STs offer. and actaully I'm pretty sure I DID ask. The people best equipped to ask were the two Theurges who weren't present.
actually finn and a couple others were watching for attack, which is why i couldn't fight the first round.
No Finn, you were shot and you took more damage than your Stamina so you were stunned. But I've never seen that rule enforced, ever, on any site. So why now? I know what I think.
Finn was near the door. But lacked the perception sux to beat their stealth.
And I've had the roll enforced on at least 2 of my PCs in the past 6 months.
right. i'm just saying we did have a watch
just sucked at it lol
Which is another question, how do 4 MiBs in hard heel shoes and 4 Garou manage to walk on the roof of an empty warehouse, probably for multiple rounds, unscrew skylight windows, and not one of six Garou noticed? I mean come on.
*chuckles* Well.. There's that. But one watch at the door? Really? What was everyone else really doing?
They get 5 sux on stealth, that's how.
and I don't recall us getting rolls for either them moving or unscrewing the windows. Did we?
You got a perception roll to notice them, they had 5 sux on stealth. No one beat 4 sux on percep. It's on the Dieroller.
Would I have given you further chances to notice them, yeah probably.
Of course.. had you failed, as you did..
ok lets not nitpick everything. It's ok to disagree. it is possible it's not some evil hate on, and just a case of different viewpoints. going on about it is just going to cause more hard feelings. personally i'm just uncomfortable in general, right or wrong, i feel uncomfortable here.
I'd have given the MiB's their free first attack for Surprise, and Blk let you all act in that round instead.
not just because of the sts or whatever but players and that 'hot button' i guess of being the whiner. i'll feel like a target from here out.
Finn, I'm not sure why you feel like a target, but I can assure you that the ST team doesn't see you as such.
thank you.
The willpower during Frenzy is one of the very few legitimate concerns, rather than a disagreement over ST style or decisions.
bottom line, this ambush shouldn't have even happened. He designed the enemy and should have known how powerful they were. He even tried to argue that hand to hand Garou are more powerful... they were spread out. At best that's a failure to plan on his part, or to properly assess what he threw at us. Now, if it were me, as if that matters, I'd have sent 4, by the book. This would have given us a chance to know things about them even if he didn't give us rolls to know it (which he should have). Teh fight would have been over quicker and we might have changed tactics to actaully do what the scene was for: to investigate the ship building company at the docks.
Hell. I wouldn't even call it nitpicking.
4 isn't by the book, QF.
Nothing in the book says they have to deploy each number grouping in order regardless of the threat rating.
And nothing stopped you from asking to roll or adking what you should roll to find out what you were dealing with. NO ONE Asked.
it says they attack in 2s. I guess maybe they could have sent 8 instead of 4, but I'm explaining my reasoning between the difference between "dangerous" scenes and sidetracking us with this, which I still feel was a kill room. 16+ soak rolls? In one scene, in what, 5-6 rounds?
And "by the book" the survivors should have walked out of the warehouse to see 16 MiBs waiting for them, but that rule.
By that rule.
And I don't see you complaining that he faied to do that. *chuckles*
Again, i'm pretty sure I did ask Blk in PM. I can't prove that. Its rare that an ST doesn't say "hey, roll me Wits + Enigmas". But whatever.
i want a cigarette
Its my contention that he did what he wanted to do. He wanted this scene. He didn't know where it would happen but it was gonna happen. It was beyond dangerous either due to his poor planning or maybe even on purpose. This isn't what players expect, even in a dangerous scene.
Anyway, let me know what you decide about the Willpower rule, especially if a ruling hinges on it. If its just going to change the rules for future scenes that doesn't concern me. I still feel I would be uncomfortable playing with Blk or even Gabby again so I guess it makes no difference.
And it's mine, that you are not BlkSprl1. Nor do you have any idea what he "wanted" or was "trying to do". All you have is conjecture. And even that is founded on what you and others remembred of a scene you were greatly upset in. Your PC died. As this is the 3rd or 4th time you've played her, I imagine you're rather attached.
I agree. I don't. But circumstantially speaking I think the picture is pretty clear. Its not damnable proof or I'd be pissed off instead of angstlessly discussing this.
And no, as I stated before, the wpr clarification will not retcon the events of this scene. And if you're not comfortable with half the ST team for the venue, then no it apparently won't change anything for you.
And no, if Evie dies in a fair scene, I'd be fine with that. And that's the truth. Hell, another incarnation of Evie died in a patently unfair scene and I didn't say squat. But you know what? Another character died in that say venue a month later because I didn't say anything. Saying nothing gets nothing fixed. Not for me and not for everyone else in the venue.
I am not upset that you raised your concerns, QF.
Well than thank you for looking into this. Again I strongly disagree with your decision or the inaction over it. I have no angst for you whatsoever. So, I guess I'm moving on. I'm going to take a few days to reflect but I may likely be asking my account be deleted. I have nothing left here.
I'll be sure to send the letter out to both of you and edit those logs.
Thanks for your time Dastai.
please. thanks. I'd like to see the DR log especially but to know what happened in the whole of that scene would be helpful to understand yuor ruling.
Of course, Finn. And no problem.
Have a nice day/night, both of you.
You too.
you too.
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still there Gabby?
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