Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:20:38 AM)
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Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:20:46 AM)
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Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:20:52 AM)
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Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:21:05 AM)
Anyway... I appologize if I get frustrated and such.
Isabella Perez (Jun 11, 2011 11:21:14 AM)
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Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:21:16 AM)
I sent you a FPM about some of my concerns Legion.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:21:23 AM)
Okay first up!
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:21:32 AM)
If I could just grab the floor for a moment.
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:21:36 AM)
kk
Janette LaCroix (Jun 11, 2011 11:21:57 AM)
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Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:22:39 AM)
I want to reiterate, that in demon we ALL work together, Players, narrators, st's, hst's.... we are a group of people all pulling together from different angles to make the game work. Everyone's imput is important, and there is no need to see anyone as the enemy. Please don't tell anyone they are being silly etc, everyone has a right to their poitns of views and concerns etc.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:23:13 AM)
well i didnt appreciate deacon telling me that i was.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:23:30 AM)
Aye, and this process we are about to begin will be qa cooperative one
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:23:47 AM)
That was a blanket statement to everyone Derek :) It was not a jab aimed at you.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:25:12 AM)
We didn't make the room to duck and weave guys lol, lets talk about the game issues we have at present, and at the moment. the only real issue we have is caused by canon forge rules
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:25:23 AM)
yip
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:25:57 AM)
which being cannon should be unchanged.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:27:25 AM)
Sorry derek, are you saying canon rules should not be changes at all?
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:28:49 AM)
I'm fine with house rules and stuff. I mean, before I made the character I knew there were some, like the 1 item a month and perm WP to perm enhance.
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:29:31 AM)
I just don't want to see any huge changes where it basically makes my main Lore useless.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:30:04 AM)
1 item a month?
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:30:10 AM)
well, if we made the Lore useless, I agree
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:30:22 AM)
1 item a month makes perm enchanting nearly useless.
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:30:28 AM)
We can craft 1 permanent item per month that is Enhanced or Enchanted.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:30:29 AM)
I think first up it's important to note that malefactors can make TONS of cool stuff apart from weapons. The creative scope you guys have is almost endless.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:30:54 AM)
Thats been the rule since Omen Derek
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:31:01 AM)
no it hasnt
Isabella Perez (Jun 11, 2011 11:31:12 AM)
Yes, Derek, it has
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:31:15 AM)
omen let me make the coat and sword in the same scene
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:31:22 AM)
Well it's the rule that is in place now and has been for some time.
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:31:27 AM)
It was on the forums when I made my character Derek. I think it's fine, since we can make powerful items.
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:31:40 AM)
It should be somewhat limited... the 1 a month thing I am fine with.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:31:48 AM)
jack did you read what i just typed?
Isabella Perez (Jun 11, 2011 11:31:55 AM)
Omen made it where you have to spend a perm WP to make anything permanant... as far as the 1 item per month rule, i've never seen anything about it, but as i don't play a malefactor, that kinda makes sense....
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:32:28 AM)
i never had a problem with the wp issue because omen let the person i was making something for spend the wp
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:33:08 AM)
What past ST's did or didn't do is fairly irelevant anyhow
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:33:28 AM)
Okay you have to spend wp to make a permanant artifact and yes the person receiving it can spend the wp. Secondly you can only make one item per month. That's written in stone and not up for debate.
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:33:56 AM)
Can I lay out some of the issues I'd like us to cover in our talk today?
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:34:05 AM)
so.. then.. how can you realy nerf perm enchants further?
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:34:41 AM)
The main issue right now, for players of both malefactors and other, is the ability to make weapons such as a diff 3 SLR that does 16 b damage
Isabella Perez (Jun 11, 2011 11:35:14 AM)
Wait, they can /do/ that??
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:35:25 AM)
my sword is dif 3
Isabella Perez (Jun 11, 2011 11:35:39 AM)
and does how much dmg?
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:35:43 AM)
Derek I'm not sure if you are aware of this but you are presenting yourself as being hostile and antagonistic. Please be conscious of tone, no one is here with the aim of ruining your game... quite the opposite.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:35:44 AM)
+7
Isabella Perez (Jun 11, 2011 11:35:59 AM)
strength +7?
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:36:09 AM)
The rules are great, wonderful and used occasionally, when playing att game, but when you involve 40 players, many of which who wish to do harm to one another, there is a political factor of power that becomes an issue
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:36:12 AM)
str+4 dif 3 1 handed
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:36:39 AM)
legion is this about PVP?
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:37:55 AM)
To some degree, it is also about the ability for too many malefactored weapons to make apoch forms redundant and thus ruin the feel and timbre of playing other houses
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:38:17 AM)
doesnt the 1 a month rule fix tha?
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:38:19 AM)
that
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:38:21 AM)
no
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:38:42 AM)
it reflects the effort that goes into the creation of something wonderful
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:38:54 AM)
the new rules will fix that
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:39:15 AM)
we will offer several models, the chat will vote on them
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:39:35 AM)
then the malefactors only will vote from the top two choices
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:39:40 AM)
This is something that everyone needs to give imput on.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:39:45 AM)
as they are the most keenly effected
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:40:13 AM)
*looks to Dusk* aye, absolutely
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:41:22 AM)
*Nods*
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:41:29 AM)
Now, we still have a few tweaks, the team are working the the best possible ic solutions to this issue
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:42:05 AM)
but please keep in mind, that Forge is a wicked skill, its is powerful, mysterious, dreadful...,and bloodyt should be
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:42:19 AM)
Basically atm we have objects in the venue that are similiar to the sword mentioned earlier. Swords that hit on diff 3 doing str + 4 lethal damage, claws that do the same at the same diff, armour that soaks against 10 aggravated. As these objects spread, apoc forms, lores etc become redundant... that's bad for the venue as a whole, and consequently bad for everyone.
Janette LaCroix (Jun 11, 2011 11:42:38 AM)
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Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:43:05 AM)
aye... Its great, but it cannot be allowed to devalue everyone elses abilities
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:43:51 AM)
but when you devalue one ability.. i.e. forge in this case then others can come along and say "well you nerfed forge, so sinec i'm complaining about agg doing claws you should nerf them also, its only fair."
Isabella Perez (Jun 11, 2011 11:44:25 AM)
I don't really get much of a say in this, but I kinda tend to agree with Legion... some of these weapons make even my most combat-heavy lore redundant and make my demon, as a whole, useless....
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:44:46 AM)
Hmm, no thats not fair, nor a reasonable arguement. We all want a balanced game, we all want what works
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:45:01 AM)
but nerfing forge is going to make derek uselss .. he has forge 4 and realm 1.. he has no others lores because i put all of it into forge.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:45:13 AM)
Again I would point out that valuing lore of forge purely as something to make killing weapons is selling the lore really really short.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:45:23 AM)
There is so much LoF can do aside from weapons.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:45:39 AM)
in example?
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:46:06 AM)
Yeah... I have ti say this focus on weapons only is frustrating. As all but one request so far has b een combat orientated
Isabella Perez (Jun 11, 2011 11:46:07 AM)
Guys, i'm going to bow out of this discussion because it really does not have much to do with my slayer. I'll be back on later today, after more coffee and some cleaning.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:46:16 AM)
enchanting boots to fly, necklaces that make your voice beautiful when you sing, mirrors that act as permanant portals, goblets that never run out of wine.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:46:18 AM)
no worries hon
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:46:22 AM)
Maps that always show you where you are.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:46:24 AM)
etc etc
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:46:28 AM)
but no one wants anything but armor and weapons.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:46:45 AM)
That's not true, my character is looking for a portal
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:46:49 AM)
ooc or icly.. no one has ever asked me for anything but weapons.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:46:54 AM)
I know of thieves that would want lock pick tools
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:47:20 AM)
how about glasses that have the ability to pick out concealed weapons underneath a persons clothing?
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:47:27 AM)
Derek, as I said, we are noty out to make forge crappy
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:47:40 AM)
there is SO much LoF can do
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:47:49 AM)
those are all great ideas dusk.. I see where your going with that.. seriously i do.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:47:57 AM)
take for example... a sword that hits at di3 is awesome
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:48:02 AM)
but no one has ever asked me ooc or icly for anything but weapons and armor.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:48:08 AM)
a sword that does +4 damage is awesome
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:48:19 AM)
a sword that does both, is unbalancing
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:48:20 AM)
Okay so keep in mind, all we are doing is limiting the ability of LoF to kill things, not limiting it as a lore.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:48:40 AM)
So offer Derek :)
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:48:42 AM)
but kiling things is all anyone ever wants forge for.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:48:47 AM)
we are attempting to find a mechanic that works
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:49:03 AM)
It's cool.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:49:05 AM)
You have a couple of pc's that are singers... offer them something that can add to their performance pool, or lower their performance difficulty
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:49:06 AM)
Derek, Allow me to put something out there
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:49:19 AM)
I don't wanna Forge stuff that just kills things.
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:49:30 AM)
But it is good to have access to nice weapons.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:49:38 AM)
meet a pc who is working the underworld route, offer him glasses that will help him see concealed weapons on people... or assist him in reading their emotions and intent!
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:49:52 AM)
i'm not saying I wouldnt mind making non lethal stuff.. i'd make whatever .. but i never get askes for rubi glasses.
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:50:02 AM)
Dusk did sell me on the idea of a gunsmith charrie though when I made this guy.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:50:16 AM)
people just haven't thought of these things yet... you guys have the opportunity to hold out your hand and say "Look what I can give you, just want you need" etc
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:50:17 AM)
also my crafting skills are weapons and armor.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:50:49 AM)
metalworking also incorporates a lot of other things
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:51:03 AM)
Demon is often called 'Demin the Twinking'... why? Because Demons are thwe most powerful ww incarnation. Some try to argue, some say there are mages in patagonia yada yada, but Demons rule the world, the afterlife and will one day rule you. NOw, sINce Demons havbe all this raw combat power, if they do fight, it generally comes down to whio wins init
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:51:12 AM)
yes it does.. BUT how leaniant are you going to be with that?
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:51:28 AM)
I have Technology 3... that take the place of crafts for Lore of Forge rolls involving electronics?
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:51:33 AM)
i'd make the arguement for mage but ok
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:51:35 AM)
Demons are so powerful. that if they fight, one dies, thats it roight
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:52:21 AM)
SO... the intention of the Demon game creators was to make then so combat ready, they could not fight, but had t find another way
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:52:26 AM)
with armor and weapons smithing, as my crafts are you really gonna let me makea pair of glasses, being metal framed but not weapons or armor?
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:52:42 AM)
Believe me, the most powerful chars in the venue now are NOT the sluggers
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:53:27 AM)
Derek, you want to make weapons, go for it
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:53:31 AM)
Derek keep in mind that buying crafts 1 costs 3xp, crafts 2 costs 2xp... these are not expensive things to buy. Also you can enchant/enhance things that you don't make. So yes you can create the rims yourself and then buy the glass to fit inside them.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:53:35 AM)
thats not what i was asking legion
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:53:36 AM)
the rules are not going to stop you
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:54:01 AM)
the rules will attempt to prevent you from making a one hit kills
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:54:18 AM)
and then making them for people you want to make them for
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:54:33 AM)
dusk: i'm going to have to buy crafting skills beyond armor and weapons to make anything else with metal?
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:54:36 AM)
and when I say you, I say ALL smiths
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:54:45 AM)
metalworking will let you make jewellry, pueter goblets, glasses rims etc
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:54:53 AM)
Nice.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:55:03 AM)
if you wanted to work with wood, then yeah you'd have to buy woodsmithing etc
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:55:10 AM)
Metalworking and Blacksmithing are the same.
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:55:12 AM)
Right?
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:55:28 AM)
Yes
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:55:30 AM)
I think we can allow that right Legion?
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:55:37 AM)
There you go :)
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:55:43 AM)
Cool.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:55:43 AM)
Absolutely, we can't have a hundred catagories
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:56:16 AM)
so with blacksmithing, i can make weapons, armor, glasses, belt buckles etc....
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:56:20 AM)
gunsmithing, Blacksmithing, mechanical?
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:56:27 AM)
Yes Derek
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:56:35 AM)
We WANT to see cool things being made. We want to see people wearing magic earings that when they flick it gives them a -2 diff to hear or + 3 dice to eveasdrop. We want mirrors that make people see their hearts desires etc
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:56:55 AM)
we also want to see, saw edged blades and hardly armour
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:56:59 AM)
I can only enhance things so far.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:57:04 AM)
but that would require the use of other lores along with forgeing to make is my understanding?
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:57:15 AM)
Lores are enchanting
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:57:17 AM)
thats core'
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:57:17 AM)
But we have to put an end to armour that soaks 10+ agg and weapons that hit at diff 3 and do huge amounts of damage. We need to do that for the venues sake.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:57:50 AM)
like i would need whatever lore covers ease dropping along with lorging to make said earring?
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:57:51 AM)
Now, what about things we have already crafted.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:58:04 AM)
Or you could get someone with the lore to work with you
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:58:10 AM)
I mean I only have 1 item... but it would probably fit in that category of things you don't like.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:58:43 AM)
for example if you wanted to make something using lore of storms, you could get a defiler to help you with the enchantment
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:58:47 AM)
Or is that gonna be brought up in your possible fixes that we vote on?
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:58:48 AM)
That way you don't have to have the lore yourself
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 11:59:10 AM)
so i can only make 1 item a month and i would then be at the mercy of finding someone with whatever lore to help me make it and spend a perm wp.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 11:59:18 AM)
That will be dealt with in the possible fixes.
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 11:59:26 AM)
kk
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 11:59:53 AM)
Derek, core rules state that you need another with a lore you dont have
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:00:21 PM)
Legion... is there any restriction on Lore of the Forge 3?
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:00:27 PM)
Omen brought in the perm wp, which I support and the one a month, which I also support, though we could be flexible there
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:01:15 PM)
well when you add up all the "you needs" to make a perm item.. its like 4 or 5 things... none of the other lores require nearly as much to make work.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:01:49 PM)
The other lores don't affect things permanantly Derek, they affect things for a limited amount of time.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:02:05 PM)
Jack,. no
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:02:10 PM)
right but when does it get to the pt of "ok we've added enough variables."
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:02:23 PM)
Can other ST's deal with Lore of the Forge 3?
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:02:36 PM)
So that it can be used in scenes the same as any other Lore?
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:03:18 PM)
for me really though.. the once a month thing is the killer.
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:03:29 PM)
I don't mind the once a month thing.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:03:39 PM)
Derek man, I didn't create the Lore of forge crafting rules, but as they stand, surely you can see that they don't fit an online venue
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:03:41 PM)
Jack, as I've said. SP and Ogre are narrators, they can't deal with permanant creation or sheet changes. Our hope is that once we get these new LoF guidlines through it will make it easier for everyone to understand and deal with, and then yes narrators will be able to see you use LoF mid scene.
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:04:10 PM)
Though it would be nice if you could limit it differently... make it you can only make 1 weapon/armor thing a month and 1 or 2 "other" items.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:04:11 PM)
The once a month I will take to team, see what they think of two..
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:04:24 PM)
That would encourage people to make things other than combat items.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:04:29 PM)
legion: i dont mind the wp thing or the needing other lores to make items.. but obviously you have no issues changing the forge rules.. so why cant the once a month restriction be changed.... ok
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:04:43 PM)
I think Jack has a really good suggestion that we should take to the team for discussion Legion.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:04:44 PM)
as it is, if you are crafting something from scratch it takes a long time anyway
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:05:05 PM)
I agree Dusk, see above :)
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:05:11 PM)
that depends.. i can go out buy metal, wrap it, cut it, link it together and make a chainmail shirt in 10 days.
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:05:13 PM)
Thanks.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:05:36 PM)
Cool :) Okay well we will take that to the team. The idea that you can make one weapon/armour/combat item per month and one non combat item per month :)
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:05:41 PM)
Did you answer my question about other ST's being able to use Lore of the Forge 3?
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:05:45 PM)
but yeah jacks got a good idea.. limit the amount of combat stuff that can be made but put a higher limit on non combat stuff
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:06:03 PM)
2 non combat items a month :P
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:06:05 PM)
Derek as a side issue... do you mean in real life?
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:06:10 PM)
yes legion.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:06:16 PM)
have you ever made one
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:06:18 PM)
i have
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:06:40 PM)
i'm a SCadian dude.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:06:49 PM)
I have a mate who belongs to the SCA, it takes him 2 months per shirt after seven years
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:06:53 PM)
lol leave it with us. It's definately worth looking into, as I have said repeatedly i want to see more cool stuff come from LoF, there is sooooo much scope there!
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:06:56 PM)
If you make Legion a chain shirt in 10 days and send it too him he might give us better crafting rules!
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:07:14 PM)
*blinks* 2 months?!
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:07:22 PM)
and he says its a bastard job lol
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:07:27 PM)
its boring no doudt
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:07:31 PM)
and repetative
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:07:38 PM)
leather stuff is way more fun to make
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:07:55 PM)
i use to sit in my friends garage and watch him make plate armor
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:07:58 PM)
that was loud
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:08:13 PM)
sorry for the tangent
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:08:19 PM)
Anyhow, we will post the new rules asap
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:08:31 PM)
jack.. I'll totally think about it.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:08:35 PM)
I am sure you will see one and say "you know, thats works"
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:08:41 PM)
but
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:09:02 PM)
the other demon types may not vote for it
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:09:46 PM)
Tell you what, sneak peek
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:10:13 PM)
They might not. To be honest Legion and I have different ideas of what would work best :) But hopefully we will all be able to find something everyone likes.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:10:24 PM)
Dusk, why dont you offer an abidged form of the template model, and I will explain the resonance model
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:10:42 PM)
their the ones we both likes
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:10:45 PM)
liked
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:10:47 PM)
?
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:11:12 PM)
Option B: Templates Only
The other option is to go a similiar road that we went with the thralls. This was actually a player suggestion (yes a malefactor player) and I think it has merit. We create a list of templates that malefactors can choose from when enhancing weapons. ie knife templates, sword templates, two handed sword templates (including scythes, spears etc), armour templates (including grieves, full armour, partial armour) Templates will outline what can be given to a weapon and the number of successes needed to achieve it.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:11:39 PM)
Eg) Knife templates
Blade of Assassins Defense
Knife (Jacket Conceal) - Attack on difficulty 5, parry on difficulty 4, strength +2 Lethal damage. (5 sux)
Blade of Tigress' Assault
Knife/Claws (Jacket Conceal) - Attack on difficulty 6, parry on difficulty 6, +2 to dice pool, Strength + 2 Aggravated damage. (5 sux Note: Must be made with syir steel to be aggravated.)
Whirwind Blades
Set of Three Throwing Knives (Pocket Conceal) - Attack on diff 5, +2 to dice pool, str lethal damage (4 sux)
Blades of Dancers Delight
Fighting knife (Jacket Conceal) - Attack on diff 6, Parry on diff 5, +2 to dice pool, str + 1 lethal damage (4 sux)
Street Blade
Fighting knife (Jacket Conceal) - Attack on diff 5, Parry on diff 6, strength + 2 lethal damage (3 sux)
I actually think the template system would save everyone (players and ST's) headaches. We let malefactors get creative when making magic mirrors, stones, jewellry, flying boots etc but throw down hard and fast, simple, clean limits on ex
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:12:15 PM)
on exactly what they can create weapon wise.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:12:17 PM)
would those be limited to the pre-created templates?
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:12:30 PM)
They would be, but there would be a whole list of templates
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:12:32 PM)
Wow.... that option would suck.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:12:43 PM)
im with jack on that
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:12:48 PM)
Suck a LOT
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:12:55 PM)
lol okay.... you go with yours Legion.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:13:06 PM)
I'd be ok if we could create our own templates but limited to the pre-made ones.. no.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:13:24 PM)
It would be quick, easy, and players would be open to offer additionla templates
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:13:49 PM)
we would not be able to think of everything, but we would be looking at balance
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:13:55 PM)
legion.. dusk just said you cant make your own templates and you just said players could offer additional templates..
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:14:09 PM)
players could submit templatres
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:14:15 PM)
is what I shoudl have said
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:14:20 PM)
Dude, spending a Perm WP to get a knife that does 1 more point of damage?
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:14:33 PM)
that would be checked for balance by st's and approved or not approved on case by case basis
Isabella Perez (Jun 11, 2011 12:14:35 PM)
the problem with going with player templates, Derek, is that everyone's template is going to be different and they are all going to complain that their template is the best template... with Legion or Dusk making the template, or picking from a list of player-submitted templates, that would stop many of the arguments, i think
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:14:50 PM)
aye
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:14:52 PM)
:)
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:15:00 PM)
Jack... name another way in WoD you can attack at diff 4 or 5 rather than 6?
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:15:10 PM)
mage
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:15:11 PM)
Okay, model two is a little more involved
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:15:22 PM)
hold posting a sec while I try to fit in in
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:15:29 PM)
Mage
Isabella Perez (Jun 11, 2011 12:15:41 PM)
i have RL stuff to attend to
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:15:44 PM)
that's why you spend the wp point, to get the diff break on attacking.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:15:45 PM)
mage artifact crafting from forged by dragons fire.
Isabella Perez (Jun 11, 2011 12:15:47 PM)
i'll be back later... or not at all
Isabella Perez (Jun 11, 2011 12:15:48 PM)
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Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:16:06 PM)
yes and those artifacts cost a LOT more xp than a wp point.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:16:35 PM)
okay, er... hold posting please?
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:16:46 PM)
Based on DEMONIC RESONANCE. This system is SIMPLE, straight forward and grounded with a good rationale.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:17:01 PM)
Theory:
The Angels were created to make beautiful things. They did this and all was good. When they fell, they were cursed by God and the fallen took on torment. Torment shows itself through the high revelatory form and from the resonance they leave in their wake. This resonance is created by having a reality bending demi-god exist in the mundane world. Like paradox in a fashion, when Demons craft reality, they taint the world with their demonic essence most clearly identified in the high torment versions of the Lores. I suggest that when a Smith enhances something with Forge, he/she creates demonic resonance that effectively destroys the success of the angelic evocation. Thus in order to negate the resonance, he must use the power of his celestial forging skills to cleanse the resonance as he goes in order to successfully complete the evocation.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:17:23 PM)
System:
Spending successes
- When making small changes to reality (increase/decrease effectiveness) for every success allocated, 1 level of demonic resonance is created.
- When making major changes to reality (increase/decrease base difficulty) for every one success allocated, 2 level of demonic resonance is created.
- For every success allocated to Demonic Resonance, one level of resonance is negated.
The final item can only withstand two levels of resonance or it will corrupt the evocation and cause it to fail.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:17:42 PM)
Hence, this will effectively lower die pool of changes that a malefactor can make to a weapon AND add an excellent rp element to any enhanced items that end up bearing resonance. Resonance can be detected with awareness, it can have some really funky effects (cause rooms to chill, attract spiders, cause bad dreams,) and so on. We could create a list of resonance effects for the players to draw from to make this process easier.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:18:09 PM)
As you can see, this is taken from my raw notes to team
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:19:26 PM)
question: how much does it change the die pool.. i.e. i have a die pool of 7, does it become 5? or 4?
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:19:46 PM)
and dusk : creating wonders in mage cost about as much as a wp point.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:20:05 PM)
The die pool remains the same
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:20:08 PM)
Not if they are effective wonders :)
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:20:08 PM)
So basically it makes it cost 2 sux to make a lesser change and 3 sux to make a major change?
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:20:22 PM)
not true dusk
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:20:42 PM)
You would have to allocate a certain number of your successes to negating resonance.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:20:43 PM)
but the weapons carry resonance, that almost all has to be bought off
Nadeen Fisher (Jun 11, 2011 12:21:03 PM)
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Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:21:06 PM)
though I havent decided wether that figure should be 1 or two resonance
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:21:35 PM)
hmm... not as bad as the first choice... but still sorta sucks.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:22:15 PM)
define small change define major change
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:23:31 PM)
i did
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:23:33 PM)
above
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:23:44 PM)
small changes are to increase effectiveness like damage modifiers, big changes are affecting things such as base difficulty.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:24:30 PM)
Hello Nadeen :) we are discussing this http://www.sinful-illusions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=122&t=4001
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:24:33 PM)
base diff changes are effectivekly beding reality more, as it is effectively easier to handle
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:24:35 PM)
so its a 1:1 or 1:2 ratio
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:24:50 PM)
making it harder, sharper, thats smaller
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:25:03 PM)
subtle shift in reality
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:25:15 PM)
so if i get 3 suxx to lower diff then I need to get 6 suxx to by off the res
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:25:29 PM)
yes Derek.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:25:50 PM)
what about on an enchant to make someone sing better?
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:25:55 PM)
how does that fit into the model
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:26:08 PM)
thats an enchantment
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:26:11 PM)
we are talking about enhancing not enchanting with these models.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:26:17 PM)
a totally differesnt system
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:26:32 PM)
so enhancing is purely diff and damage lvl?
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:26:40 PM)
the rules for that are in the book, and the clear how to guide is on the forum
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:26:50 PM)
and weight, durability
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:26:53 PM)
range
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:27:25 PM)
the 1:1 ratio isnt so bad.. the 1:2 ratio makes it nearly not worth considering
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:27:31 PM)
making gloves that help you craft while you wear them is enhacing, lockpicking tools that help you break safes, doors etc is enhancing.
Nadeen Fisher (Jun 11, 2011 12:28:26 PM)
*reads*
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:28:56 PM)
i only get like 9 dice to forge something so if i lower the diff by 2.. the rest of my pool is going to have to be used to lower the res
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:29:41 PM)
and if i get a bad roll.. i've screwed it all up
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:30:05 PM)
well do lower the diff by 2 and buy off the resonce would cost you 6 successes.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:30:48 PM)
but i cant lower it by 3 cause the res roll would be 6 dice.. and i would need a sucss on all 6 not to screw up the forging
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:31:04 PM)
Derek, you speak in absolutes... with a 2 for 1, you could sgtill lower the diff of a weapon to the diff you wanted
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:31:13 PM)
But unlike the template model you get the freedom to choose exactly how you spend your successes.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:31:24 PM)
but just not have the bonus of the damage, thats the idea
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:31:53 PM)
thats because your ssystem is completely in absolutes.. i get 9 dice.. its finite thus making it an absolute
Nadeen Fisher (Jun 11, 2011 12:31:55 PM)
"Increase effectiveness to DOUBLE the initial pool. eg . A pistol dmg 4, can be raised to 8, armour 3 can be raised to armour 6, Increase durability ect" I think I like that.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:31:56 PM)
and if you screw the roll, welcome to the game... we screw rolls all the time
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:32:07 PM)
no need for the sarcasm legion
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:32:17 PM)
There was none
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:32:27 PM)
plus do either of you have paragon?
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:32:32 PM)
yes
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:32:35 PM)
there you go :)
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:32:45 PM)
Thats a second bite of the cherry
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:32:52 PM)
paragon 3
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:32:59 PM)
same
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:33:15 PM)
well then you don't have to worry about a crappy roll once a month ruining everything :)
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:33:23 PM)
?
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:34:34 PM)
So these are the options that are currently on the table and will be posted up. It seems you are both more interested in the second option atm, so we'll field a wider player imput on that in the coming week.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:34:55 PM)
2nd is better.. but it is severely limiting
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:35:07 PM)
The resonance system avoids working in absolutes by allowing you to allocate the sux.... There are boundaries, but bthe core rules have boundaries
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:35:21 PM)
It is limiting, yes
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:35:29 PM)
THAT is its function
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:35:30 PM)
legion.. the system is absolutes numerically.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:35:46 PM)
so are the core.. you have sux, you spend them
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:36:01 PM)
But you're not locked into choosing a template.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:36:02 PM)
right but the 1:2 ratio is very harsh
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:36:03 PM)
same applies here, thoiugh their is a handicap syetem
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:36:08 PM)
yes it ios
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:36:14 PM)
and a bit unfair
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:36:15 PM)
that is its function
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:36:19 PM)
No its not unfair
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:36:23 PM)
1:1 ratio i can live with
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:36:24 PM)
and yes it is
Nadeen Fisher (Jun 11, 2011 12:36:34 PM)
I think the point of the review was to be limiting, so people don't have stuff that simply overwhelms anything the rest of the characters are capableof?
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:36:40 PM)
Allowing certain players to attack permanantly on a diff 3 and do double normal weapon damage is unfair.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:36:44 PM)
its takes these things to a level that, when used in conjuction with demonic powers
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:36:51 PM)
gives the edge, not the win
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:37:23 PM)
i dont have enough pool to even bother with the 1:2 ratio stuff.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:37:44 PM)
Then build your pool
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:37:56 PM)
You do.. it just means that rather than drop your diff down to 3, it might be wiser to drop it to 5 or 4
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:37:57 PM)
grow in experience, hone your craft
Nadeen Fisher (Jun 11, 2011 12:38:12 PM)
Wow. I only have 6 dice to dancing, I guess I just shouldn't dance in character.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:38:19 PM)
and if i do that dusk.. then i cant do anything to the +damage
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:38:20 PM)
We have play tested the rule with a mix of abilities and made awesome stuff
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:38:29 PM)
nadeen thats not helping
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:38:45 PM)
5 sux to dancing, its Ginger Rogers :)
Nadeen Fisher (Jun 11, 2011 12:38:50 PM)
shhhhh
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:38:54 PM)
:)
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:38:55 PM)
of course you can. You have a pool of 9? What diff are you rolling at to enahance? 4? 3? with paragon 3? You're likely to walk out with 7 - 8 sux
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:39:09 PM)
i think 4
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:39:19 PM)
ok lets say i walk out with 7 succ
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:39:35 PM)
Nauel rolled up 8 today Dusk?
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:39:54 PM)
lower the diff by 2 = 2 sux, buy off resohance = 4 sux add + 2 to damage... that's all your sux. so you make sword that attacks on diff 4 and does str + 4 damage. That's AMAZING
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:39:58 PM)
if i put 2 to -2 duff then i have 5 left.. whcih is only 1 more then needed to get rid of all the resonce.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:40:44 PM)
Sorry + 1 damage.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:40:49 PM)
but
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:40:57 PM)
That still equates to a sword that hits on diff 4 with str+3 damage. That is huge.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:41:12 PM)
i need all 5 dice to lower my resonace because if i use only 4 to do it, and i dont get 4 suceess then i fail the item.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:41:36 PM)
You have paragon 3
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:41:41 PM)
you will get the sux
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:41:41 PM)
yes
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:41:44 PM)
you know that
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:41:44 PM)
not true
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:41:46 PM)
last night
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:41:59 PM)
i rolled 5 dice at diff 3 to hit and i only got 2 success both times
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:42:21 PM)
So on temp enchantments is it the same limits?
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:42:33 PM)
Well yes recently a character died because the botched 2 soak rolls... sometimes worse case scenarios happen but it's rare
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:42:40 PM)
yes Jack
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:42:49 PM)
This will be limits for temp and permanant enchantments
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:43:06 PM)
Derek, you are looking at this from a very negative postion... you are saying that three attempts is not enough to create a sword thats Diff 4, str+3. I think most players will not agree
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:43:08 PM)
but thats my pt.. with 7 dice all i can do is the -2 to diff, the other 5 have to get rid of the res
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:43:25 PM)
3 attempts?
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:43:34 PM)
whre does 3 attempts come from
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:43:35 PM)
Paragon 3 gives 3 rerolls.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:43:38 PM)
ok
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:43:39 PM)
paragon 3. three cracks at it
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:43:58 PM)
well 3 rerolls gives you 4 cracks at it really :)
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:44:08 PM)
yes thats right
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:44:31 PM)
So, is crafting permanent items the only thing that other ST's are not allowed to handle Legion?
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:44:33 PM)
if you fail 4 times, Gods trying to tell you something, include that in the IC experience
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:44:49 PM)
i rebelled against god anyway. :P
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:44:52 PM)
That non ST's can handle
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:44:59 PM)
Dusk and myseelf can
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:45:03 PM)
Jack at the moment all crafting is on hold until we have this issue settled
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:45:16 PM)
Why is all crafting on hold?
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:45:23 PM)
Once it is settled, we will get back to you on the deal with Ogre and SP
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:45:31 PM)
For one thing... Mundane crafting has nothing to do with this.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:45:39 PM)
well.. ok fine.. the res system is liveable.. but only liveable the template system meh.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:45:50 PM)
Very true, let me specify. Enhancing is on hold.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:46:08 PM)
i could go with and play with the res system
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:46:19 PM)
So... Enhancing and Enchanting are on hold.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:46:35 PM)
template system meh
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:46:38 PM)
But we can still do normal mundane crafting and Lore of the Forge 3?
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:46:44 PM)
Cool :) As I said we should have this finalised within.... a week Legion? A week and a half at most?
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:46:55 PM)
Okay :) and another thing I like with the resonance system, is the resonance effects, these could be something that really add to your char
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:47:03 PM)
ASAP Dusk
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:47:06 PM)
:)
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:47:28 PM)
Yes jack you can. Just give us a week or week and a half to settle this enhancing issue.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:47:29 PM)
depends on if the res effects add any mechanic or not.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:47:49 PM)
no, to your rp
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:47:58 PM)
Well if you negate all resonance there is no issue. If you leave 1 hanging over...... that will effect rp!
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:48:16 PM)
Can I ask a few more questions about Lore of the Forge 3?
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:48:21 PM)
but i thought if you left any res hanging then the item is a fail
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:48:27 PM)
A sword that occationally bleeds, prehaps in certsain conditions
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:48:37 PM)
i'm leaving in a sec jack so you'll have the floor totally to yourself
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:48:39 PM)
no, you arew allowed 1 haning
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:48:45 PM)
kk
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:48:53 PM)
Jack it's extremely late in Australia and Legion and I are leaving soon. Can you get all those questions together that don't involve enhancing and send them in fpm to both Legion and myself.
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:49:18 PM)
Er...
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:49:20 PM)
1 hanging res.. thats cool.. totally live with that.. have a good day err night or something.. taking my wife and kid to X man move.
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:49:22 PM)
movie
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:49:26 PM)
It was a quick question.
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:49:30 PM)
have fun!
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:49:33 PM)
and that one hanging res can be the making of a legendary sword
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:49:37 PM)
Have a good ione
Derek Aerics (Jun 11, 2011 12:49:39 PM)
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Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:50:04 PM)
Does Shape Object take 1 round per roll?
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:50:34 PM)
Send all the shape object questions to me via fpm and I will cross reference with the books and get back to you
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:50:40 PM)
Right now I -must- find my bed!
Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:50:44 PM)
Night all :)
Nadeen Fisher (Jun 11, 2011 12:50:47 PM)
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Dusk (Jun 11, 2011 12:50:52 PM)
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Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:51:03 PM)
I thinmk so
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:51:10 PM)
and im to bed,. its 3 am
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:51:17 PM)
Ok.
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:51:20 PM)
See ya later.
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:51:22 PM)
ta ra
Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:51:23 PM)
Sweet dreams!
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:51:27 PM)
:P)
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:51:31 PM)
you too
Legion (Jun 11, 2011 12:51:32 PM)
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Jack Schmidt (Jun 11, 2011 12:51:34 PM)
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