Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 7:20:17 PM)
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Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:20:19 PM)
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SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:20:47 PM)
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Connor Hart (Aug 8, 2010 7:21:21 PM)
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Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:21:29 PM)
Alright.
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:21:34 PM)
Before we get down to business.
Connor Hart (Aug 8, 2010 7:21:40 PM)
Kinda AFK a couple, but I'll catch up.
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:21:49 PM)
Can I say- thank you for taking the time to speak with us, SD. I really appreciate it, and I'm sure everyone else does as well.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 7:21:57 PM)
100%
Deschain (Aug 8, 2010 7:22:31 PM)
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Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:22:38 PM)
I do. I'm feeling a bit defeatist about the outcome, but it's nice of you to chat us up.
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:22:47 PM)
I would like to say also that I enjoy playing here. I recognize I, in particular, have been given an option for a special character and truly enjoy that as I finally have a stargazer that doesn't have to be Mr. Miagi.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:23:04 PM)
Well, I do try to give folks a fair listen even if i wholly wind up not agreeing.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:23:46 PM)
Anyhow, what is it you guys need to say?
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:24:13 PM)
Well. I think each of us have a problem in some repect, but I think the most important thing to discuss is Hellbillys PC having his ncredible social rolls outright ignored.
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:24:30 PM)
I'll let James take it from here to explain the situation as he see's it.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:24:35 PM)
Alright
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:25:42 PM)
I...
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:25:52 PM)
It's pretty straight-forward.
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:28:59 PM)
.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:29:00 PM)
ok
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:29:24 PM)
I rolled a combined total of 9 successes. 9. 4 more than the minimum to be viewed as a world class effort, and there was absolutely no recognition of it. In fact, quite the contrary. Multiple people openly admitted ignoring it because they, as Players, didn't want their characters to have to change their minds about something. If this were actual combat, and they'd ignored 9 successes to hit or damage because they didn't want their characters to suffer, they'd be Warned for metagaming. I fail, on any appreciable level, to see a significant difference.
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:29:24 PM)
.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:29:52 PM)
The nature of social laws vs physics.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:30:08 PM)
Actually.
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:30:27 PM)
That's a cop out. It's a valid, legitimate roll of the dice that should not be ignored.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:30:45 PM)
Let me ask this- why cant you convince them without the dice?
Connor Hart (Aug 8, 2010 7:30:56 PM)
(Back n' reading)
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:31:35 PM)
It's politics, it's social, it's *role* play, not roll play. yes the dice are there to settle things, but it sounds like there's a general opinion that frankly- folks dont agree with you. and you havent convinced them to agree with you.
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:32:07 PM)
They are not listening to the logic they should have as Garou, they are taking it from human prospective.
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:32:13 PM)
Is the issue with that, SD.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 7:32:28 PM)
SD, the book would not have those stats if what you're saying is true.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:32:31 PM)
Well, the players are human , being the unfortunate ? perhaps part there.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:32:39 PM)
Gavril - sure they would.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:33:05 PM)
Look, i'm not discounting entirely the use of social roles. they're great at times. staredowns- for starters. whether you can lie and the other party gets to ask "so can i tell he's lying?"
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:33:17 PM)
it's also pretty darn useful when you're going Players vs ST so to speak
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:33:23 PM)
or more accurately players vs NPC
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 7:33:36 PM)
Every Ability has an example below it of a canon NPC using that ability and explaining the effect. Abilities like Subterfuge, Expression...those abilities have examples of rallying, changing hearts and minds with those stats. Leadership.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:33:47 PM)
Let me finish
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:33:48 PM)
So why are the NPC's not jumping in to get Rodgers back?
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:33:50 PM)
Sorry.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:33:55 PM)
The books wer written with the idea ofa table top in mind
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:34:09 PM)
SD, they said, flat out, THAT THEY WOULD NOT, REGARDLESS OF WHAT WAS SAID, CHANGE THEIR MINDS. How, in the face of OOC manipulation, can I manage anything IC?
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:35:05 PM)
Hang on, organizing thoughts.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:36:05 PM)
Again, this really goes back to what i was saying before. those rolls are great for table top. where the storyteller has an NPC and not nearly every nPC , in fact few, wind up fully fleshed out with all their opinions/justifications/full history out. the dice are quite helpful in this regard. However even table top, there are times where it does not matter how many successes you get. it just isn't going to work. because it's not reasonable for the other person to change their mind.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:36:30 PM)
This goes back again to what i'm saying about socialness ic- i dont know why you cant convince them with something other than a roll, that they're right. players human or not i've seen it done a lot.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:36:56 PM)
It's a skill as a role player, one i'll confess i myself am not the greatest at. it's why i dont play political characters and have learned to not try to pull large political coups etc. it backfires on me. regardless of what #s i have on a sheet.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:37:11 PM)
I dont honestly think the entire venue is out to "get" you OOC HB. or ignore you intentionally.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:37:38 PM)
I think you've presented them with a character who no matter how convincing, has not made enough of an impression on their characters or, has made a negative one, so that they wont listen to him. regardless of how well the speech is delivered.
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:37:45 PM)
The generally accepted definition of Metagaming to determine IC events with OOC knowledge. How is this- people saying OOCly that there is no way I can change their CHARACTERS minds on something, NOT the very definition of metagaming?
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:38:03 PM)
That or it's the very definition of telling you that ICly they've made up their minds
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:38:08 PM)
and tyring to save you the effort.
Connor Hart (Aug 8, 2010 7:38:20 PM)
I think it comes down to people ignoring dice. Look, maybe HB himself isn't eloquent or a good enough speaker to get people to listen to his view. That's his failing as a player. (I don't agree that he isn't, but this is the situation.) So his character makes the diceroller because his character IS.
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:38:30 PM)
Yeah... I guess that's one way to look at it, SD.
Connor Hart (Aug 8, 2010 7:39:00 PM)
The dice are the answer for people who aren't smarter than their characters, aren't better speakers, but want to play someone who is.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:39:11 PM)
Which works very well when you have a table top group
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:39:29 PM)
SignalDancer
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:39:36 PM)
But, that pretty much invalidates the concept of every single Galliard and Philodox out there. "It doesn't matter that your character is a speaking genius. I, as the player, have predetermined that nothing you can ever do will make an impact on my character. So sad, too bad." What's the point?
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:39:36 PM)
yes Rathalos?
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:39:38 PM)
Why are the NPC's in the sept not moved by these 9 suxx?
Connor Hart (Aug 8, 2010 7:39:40 PM)
It works well in chat if the STs enforce those dice.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:39:49 PM)
You'd have to ask a WTA ST that
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:40:01 PM)
As they, by your reasoning, should be intensely interested/favoring HB's character Rodger
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:40:03 PM)
Which, i am not. although that thread is up for what? under 24 hours?
Connor Hart (Aug 8, 2010 7:40:35 PM)
Well, two STs have posted on the thread in that time. One commited a serious online trespass, the other reprimanded. Neither posted an NPC reaction.
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:40:46 PM)
So basicly- talk to the WtA ST's social rolls do not influence PC's on SI.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 7:40:55 PM)
One of the STs opted to post on her player skin rather than play NPCs. A problem with allowing your STs to play in venues they run. Ghostlin agreed with me even that there were problems with this policy once he heard my reasoning.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:41:02 PM)
Rathalos- you were asking about NPCs
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:41:34 PM)
*Nod* But you stated that the social rolls don't work on PC's instead you have to actually convince them through RP you are correct.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:41:48 PM)
I'm stating you cannot rely 100% on social rolls
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:41:56 PM)
I am not stating they are fully irrelevant.
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:42:07 PM)
I think the next issue is one Gavril has about ST's in the venue they play.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:42:10 PM)
You are asking for a black and white hard and fast ruling on something that's rather fluid.
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:42:16 PM)
*Didn't mean to post that, sorry)
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:42:46 PM)
So we're done with the social issue and you agree with me?
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 7:42:53 PM)
Uh, no. You just won't move.
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:42:58 PM)
Actually, SD, what I'm asking is that (since the product line is unsupported by the producers) the Staff take up the slack presented in a weakness of the system to house rule something in to act as a stopgap.
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:43:00 PM)
I agree it should be discussed with the WtA staff.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:43:09 PM)
I doubt they're going to tell you anything different Rathalos
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:43:17 PM)
I said if you want to know why the NPCs havent answered. you might have to ask them.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:43:21 PM)
Although i can speculate as to why.
Connor Hart (Aug 8, 2010 7:43:29 PM)
I think the staff should write-up some way that social rolls effect gameplay rather than the "You can choose to ignore anything you feel like, whenever you feel like."
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 7:43:32 PM)
Saphirra, instead of bringing her PC into the mix..should have played an NPC she is responcible for to address the 9 suxx roll. Or when Ghostlin was done reprimanding her, should have brought the Child of Gaia Elder who runs the sept into the mix.
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:43:39 PM)
That's fine. It just means we can ignore people as well in social situations.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 7:43:39 PM)
Or what Connor said.
auggy (Aug 8, 2010 7:43:47 PM)
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SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:43:47 PM)
Rathalos- you are really twisting my words
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:43:50 PM)
and it is *not* appriciated.
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:44:04 PM)
So what ARE you stating?
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:44:05 PM)
And lets talk about my issue for a moment
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:44:10 PM)
Which is that you like to do that a lot.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:44:16 PM)
And you like to be rude to my staff repeatedly.
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:44:18 PM)
...
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:44:29 PM)
you = Rathalos. and dont think that i have not noticed.
auggy (Aug 8, 2010 7:44:44 PM)
*cough*
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:44:52 PM)
Very well- would you like to support this with screenshots at all?
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:44:58 PM)
I'm sorry... when did this turn from Players seeking resolution on a chat matter into a chance to denigrate on a Player?
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 7:45:04 PM)
Right then. Since the next issue brought up my concern with your ruling that STs can play in their own venues.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 7:45:08 PM)
up is*
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:45:11 PM)
Or are we discussing the issue with Gretchen being a Kinfolk Sorcerer and my comment thereby?
Connor Hart (Aug 8, 2010 7:45:18 PM)
I have to kind of agree with what he said though, SD. You just explained that PCs can choose to ignore any social rolls they don't want to respond to. Why is him saying we'll do the same offensive?
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:45:24 PM)
Rathalos- we can discuss it in depth later. since the rest of these folks want to talk about other issues.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:45:31 PM)
I"m saying that you cannot rely 100% on dice rolls
Connor Hart (Aug 8, 2010 7:45:38 PM)
Why?
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:45:39 PM)
in social situations. i am not saying they are utterly irrelevant.
Connor Hart (Aug 8, 2010 7:45:55 PM)
Why won't STs enforce all rolls? Why're some rolls allowed to count and others not?
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 7:46:32 PM)
I'm clearly not making this clear. would you mind if i asked someone else on staff to help me explain?
Connor Hart (Aug 8, 2010 7:46:34 PM)
It's not a free form game, it's enforced by mechanics and dice. Rolling Man+Exp is every bit as REAL a roll as Dex+Brawl. It all falls on the STs to enforce people abide by the effect.
Connor Hart (Aug 8, 2010 7:46:42 PM)
I'd be okay with that.
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:46:54 PM)
I didn't. I used logic, reason, concrete examples, and humor. I supported those IC things with dice to offer the other players a measuring stick we all accept- success levels- as a means of determining what effect the comments had. The other players and Staffmembers decided unanimously to ignore entirely my efforts.
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:46:59 PM)
You haven't said anything Signal beyond "Why not convince the PC's through role-play rather than through social rolls?"
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:47:09 PM)
And "It is fluid, not black and white."
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 7:47:26 PM)
Lets just....er...hear what someone else on staff has to say to see if we can get some more illumination.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 7:47:31 PM)
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Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:47:34 PM)
You have offered your speculation on why the NPC's have not responded.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 7:47:38 PM)
Hello there. :)
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:47:44 PM)
Des.
Connor Hart (Aug 8, 2010 7:49:07 PM)
Sorry for slow responses. I -do- want to make everyone aware that I was/am keeping logs of the conversation.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 7:49:16 PM)
As am I.
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:49:18 PM)
Cool with me.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 7:49:35 PM)
I've been asked to come here to attempt to diffuse an issue pertaining to social dice in the werewolf venue being disregarded by the players. Is this correct?
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 7:49:43 PM)
And NPCs.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 7:50:05 PM)
...and NPCs, okay. *nods*
Des (Aug 8, 2010 7:50:13 PM)
We'll get to the NPCs in just a moment. :)
Connor Hart (Aug 8, 2010 7:50:18 PM)
The issue, Des, is that a total of nine successes on a Manipulation+Expression roll, with bonuses from Ancestors guiding the player AND Willpower to make it especially poignant were ignored.
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:50:31 PM)
Des, up to a point, yes. It ceased to be a purely IC thing and became an OOC thing when we were collectively Trolled by other players, and then insulted and told that we should 'roleplay' and not 'rollplay'.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 7:51:27 PM)
Okay, well before I even attempt to offer anything, I do want to convey the disclaimer that I am not affiliated with the Werewolf staff in any way, shape or form. That I'm simply here to bring quality assurance to the you, the players.
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:51:37 PM)
Understood.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 7:52:02 PM)
My opinions may not coincide with the collective opinion of Sinful Illusions, its staff, or its representatives therein.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 7:52:14 PM)
That being said, we can get started. :)
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:53:54 PM)
.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 7:54:23 PM)
So the primary issue can be summed up in terms of, the four players assembled here in this room are not enjoying the venue.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 7:54:59 PM)
From what I'm gathering, the reasons of this disdain and lack of entertainment is not a singular reason, correct?
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 7:55:29 PM)
I mean if you're going to Thomas Aquinas Unmade Maker arguement the issue yes.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 7:55:33 PM)
obviously we are here as a result of displeasure.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:55:44 PM)
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Des (Aug 8, 2010 7:55:54 PM)
Gavril: I understand, and I will try to bring closure here in a civil and friendly manner. :)
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:56:08 PM)
Semi AFK.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 7:56:09 PM)
I just don't want the complaint to be trivialized "They didn't like our game lawlz"
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:56:10 PM)
(Someone please boot Connor. I dropped right after Des said "My opinions may not coincide with-")
Connor Hart (Aug 8, 2010 7:56:21 PM)
(This user has left DigiChat) (IP = 70.115.217.164)
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 7:56:24 PM)
So go on then, sorry for the interruption.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:56:28 PM)
(Thanks!)
Des (Aug 8, 2010 7:56:51 PM)
My pleasure Michael. *nod*
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:57:00 PM)
Did I miss anything relevant?
Des (Aug 8, 2010 7:57:38 PM)
Not of any importance.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 7:58:06 PM)
Now, I don't pretend to claim that I know anything about what is going on. All that I know is what's been brought up in this room at this particular moment.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 7:58:09 PM)
Okay, please continue with my apologies.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 7:58:46 PM)
Let me start with the social roll in question not being acknowledged by the other characters.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 7:59:04 PM)
This one is pretty straightforward. It's a common theme that has happened more than one on more than one chat
Des (Aug 8, 2010 7:59:55 PM)
It's that daichotomy between rolls impacting a local media of someone's living room or dining room with tangible dice and person-to-person interaction of Real Life versus the more diverse media of Online roleplay.
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:00:19 PM)
Which, minus the higher grade level language, is exactly what SD said...
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:00:27 PM)
IE- people ignore social dice rolls because the STs don't enforce them.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:00:49 PM)
The ST's can't enforce every roll that's made in that dice roller at all times
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:00:56 PM)
...
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:00:58 PM)
Remember guys, this is a labor of love. We don't get paid to do this
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:01:00 PM)
That's sophistry.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:01:10 PM)
But this is one that was printed on the forums, and was viewed by at least three STs.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:01:24 PM)
And i can promise ghostlin at least was more busy dealing with the CoI issue
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:01:26 PM)
A simple post: "Whether you agree with this challenge or not, his words are hauntingly convincing...when you hear them, it makes you think 'Wow...what if that tactic of leaping in and murdering the bane did get us all killed one day?:
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:01:28 PM)
he's in theory on break guys.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:01:28 PM)
Would have sufficed.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:01:35 PM)
Okay whoa whoa
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:01:43 PM)
Let's not dilute the issue here
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:01:55 PM)
Right now we're focusing on HB's problem, and we'll get to the others in their due time
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:01:58 PM)
"We can't enforce every dice roll made." "We have these house rules here we expect you to follow, and we also expect you to follow the rules in the book. We trust you enough that we don't have to monitor every dice roll... except for the social ones."
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:03:48 PM)
Okay, then what would you suggest be the remedy, Hellbilly?
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:04:03 PM)
How should we at this chat fix this?
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:04:35 PM)
When HB is done offering his discussion, nod my way please.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:04:41 PM)
suggestion*
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:04:45 PM)
Of course, Gavril.
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:05:01 PM)
Do you want simple or complex, Des?
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:05:10 PM)
I'm fine with either one
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:05:19 PM)
The spotlight is on you. :)
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:05:43 PM)
Simple: Social rolls are automatically contested, with the higher successes rolled swaying the other to their way of thought, even if grudgingly.
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:06:25 PM)
Complex: Adapt and adopt the Exalted social combat rules to the oWoD. Since the product line is unsupported, it falls on the current STs to handle any weaknesses in system via house rules.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:06:41 PM)
Both very valid solutions
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:07:21 PM)
The simple solution will most definitely be suggested to Ghostlin upon his return. The complex one I will personally bring up at our next staff meeting.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:07:35 PM)
Because that would quell issues that span across more than one venue
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:07:51 PM)
I can accept that. It's MUCH better than the current party line of: "Suck it up, that's how we roll."
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:08:23 PM)
I'll even get with Gav's player here and do the number crunching to alter the Exalted system to the oWoD.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:08:36 PM)
I have storytold Exalted for...3 years on Digichats.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:08:49 PM)
Probably 'I have been storytelling' in real Americanese.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:09:18 PM)
I'll definitely keep that in mind. But please remember; we're still a fairly new chat undergoing some serious growing pains from an unexpected success
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:09:32 PM)
Not to mention Requiem for Rome has a NWoD and therefore not 20 dice intensive Social Combat system.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:09:38 PM)
That is very simple.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:09:42 PM)
They are successful. My presence is what defines success for DigiChat games.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:09:52 PM)
Go pad your post count on Soapbox.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:09:53 PM)
:)
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:10:10 PM)
To be blunt, we didn't expect to see the numbers that we're seeing for at least another couple of months
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:10:25 PM)
and we're, admittedly, a little underprepared for the sudden demand. :)
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:11:07 PM)
Anyway, my suggestion is that even if you don't impliment either system-STs come on and make a basic responce post "Whether the individual hearts and minds of the sept truely agree or not, the words of the Galliard are well-spoken and certainly, his song deserves the listen in accordance with its wit and skill. While even the toughest of Talons may despise the artful words, he knows as he grumbles and walks away-that the ideas presented are hauntingly seductive"
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:11:21 PM)
That allows everyone to basically be more or less their own person, but recognize the skill of his post.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:11:24 PM)
And its successes.
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:11:51 PM)
Still AFKish, dealing with kids and bathtimes.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:11:53 PM)
Gavril: That's not a call I can make, to be honest. Werewolf is not my venue, and whether I agree or disagree, my opinion means nothing in that venue. :)
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:12:03 PM)
Of course, all this proves a moot point. Deschain admitted he's not here carrying actual authority and doesn't speak for any ST. Do we not have to go through this same situation with Ghostlin when he's back from his break?
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:12:09 PM)
Right...so no offence Des, but you came in here to mitigate and present the Administrative position regarding social rolls.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:12:22 PM)
(Ha, Des beat me- more or less- to the punch there.)
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:12:25 PM)
It will get relayed to ghostlin.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:12:32 PM)
I'm not talking about just for Werewolf. If Alex made a 5 suxx Social Fu roll in Mage, I'd expect you to do something like that
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:12:47 PM)
And if Ghostlin should say "No. We will not enforce social rolls." ?
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:13:01 PM)
Then maybe you have Deschain considering changes in mage.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:13:17 PM)
I'm saying ignoring social rolls should not be allowed in any venue. Which is why we came to an -administrator-
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:13:19 PM)
And have at least been heard, even if we dont agree.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:13:40 PM)
Anyway, my issue is also fairly serious if we are just going to move on?
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:13:52 PM)
I'd like that one point addressed.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:13:54 PM)
Michael: To be honest, that's speaking in hypotheticals. I'm just here to keep the peace and keep the ball rolling. *grin*
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:14:03 PM)
Trust me, we'll consider it.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:14:23 PM)
We came to the Admin team because we couldn't go to the HST right now. If he opts out, what can we expect the Admin team to do?
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:14:29 PM)
but if you're expecting me to throw down a ruling right now in this room, then you're not going to get it.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:14:36 PM)
that we're changing things chat wide this very second.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:14:45 PM)
Ghostlin said he'd come back from break to discuss some of the stuff that happened today. Told me so himself.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:14:54 PM)
No one said that.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:15:12 PM)
No one told you to.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:16:22 PM)
mmkay, well this social roll business has found some sort of temporary closure.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:16:29 PM)
Moving on to my issue?
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:16:29 PM)
We have many more issues to attend to
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:16:38 PM)
So yes, Gavril. You have the floor.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:16:44 PM)
Are any of the coming ones about the pack in general or the Mage game?
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:18:04 PM)
STs playing in their own venues. I have no idea why this ruling was ever permitted, but today it came out in a big way. While I understand Saphirra is a new ST-and Ghostlin artfully handled the situation, this is an intrinsic problem. Not to mention that like, 5 Staff members (Sorry SD) have Fostern transfers in the game. I explained to Ghostlin a situation. Two days ago we had a misruling in a challenge worth renown between Yama Kaze and Apollo Stevens. If let's say..Connor Hart and Axe (played by Ghostlin) were involved in that challenge, and a misruling favored Ghostlin
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:18:07 PM)
Yes, Mike
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:18:09 PM)
I'd have real fun watching you all try to explain that away.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:18:21 PM)
Even if it was just a bad ruling. Mistakes we all make.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:18:36 PM)
I can explain exactly why that ruling was permitted
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:18:50 PM)
For the exact same reason that it it permitted on almost every other chat out there. The STs come from the player base.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:19:08 PM)
It is not permitted on my chat, sure as shit isn't. Nor was it on a variety of chats I've played on. its nowhere near consensus.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:19:20 PM)
Thisis not your chat
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:19:20 PM)
I'll be honest here. In the last 3 or 4 days I've had some issues come up with a single ST and then an entire player base. It doesn't make me all that comfortable right now in re: WtA. The fact that I sent an FPM to the entire Werewolf team- as per the HST's orders- and the only person who bothered to respond to me was the person I was speaking about, and her motivations were self defense, coupled with the same ST laying down edicts about her own skin, finalized by the entire WtA staff completely ignoring a thread that is clearly a sensitive one? It's an issue. I'm moderately mollified by even the appearance of being listened to by an (no offense) outsider ST, but... I'm going to log out and take some time to determine my personal needs and comfort levels at this point.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:19:30 PM)
HB- we're addressing one issue.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:19:38 PM)
we'll get to saph and the COI thing shortly.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:19:39 PM)
Right, he's posting regarding that issue.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:19:57 PM)
You have a significant COI problem. You have Zhaed playing -two Garou- one who is attempting to establish his own sept.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:20:30 PM)
Clearly i'm not going to be allowed to finish one thought here.
Hellbilly OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:20:35 PM)
(This user has left DigiChat) (IP = 98.200.126.49)
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:20:48 PM)
And I'm beginning to fail to see the reasoning in explaining why i allow things or why i dont allow things if i'm not going to be permitted that much.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:21:41 PM)
Go ahead SD.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:22:28 PM)
Again- the STs comef rom the player base. While I do not encourage STs to play in their own venue, yes, we permit it. because it's the only way that *we* have found to staff the venues even marginally enough for the player base we have. Yes, i am aware that creates some CoI issues, which we do our best to handle. Re: Ghostlin taking over the sapph thing.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:22:49 PM)
Regarding the fostern transfers- yes, some of the staff does have them. however, it was blanketly open to allow transfers for everyone who applied the first month. there's no favoritism there if it's permitted to everyone.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:23:31 PM)
We all know my opinion of chat transfers pretty good by this point, so I'll keep quiet on that one.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:23:49 PM)
And it is my decision that i do not care to deny narrators much, and storytellers are denied a bit more, and the HSTs if they play play under some very strict rules/prohibitions of what they can/cannot do
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:24:54 PM)
I understand your reasoning, but I'm a little sad you're comfortable with being reactionary regarding COI issues. If Saph had not had a character, she could have devoted her energy to playing an NPC on that forum post today rather than posting on her player skin. It does hurt your venue. You have several WtA STs who ignore ST duties (i.e. scheduling scenes when players ask for them politely) in the foyer.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:25:03 PM)
Yama Kaze and I have seen it in a big way.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:25:19 PM)
We try to be proactive but clearly- we're not perfect.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:25:33 PM)
Not to turn Judas on everyone, but... I tend to agree with SD here. I won't play in a venue I ST on. It's too easy for that conflict of interest and just looks really, really bad. But... the reality of the situation is that if everyone was like me, no one would be running anything anywhere. I bet half the ST team would quit as STs or just start a new chat if they were told they had to choose between their PCs and STing.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:25:36 PM)
We dont have a choice when there is an issue other than to yes- react, and try to ensure that it does not happen again
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:25:56 PM)
I don't like it, but this problem is a necessary evil in my eyes.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:26:07 PM)
*Shrugs* Fair enough. If you're fine with having problems crop up like this often enough. I'd say you at least need to consider letting folks have two PCs in a venue they ST.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:26:16 PM)
I'm going to have to reiterate what was uttered in the OOC room. We're here for one purpose; entertainment.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:26:18 PM)
Not letting*
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:26:43 PM)
Per what Des is saying- were i a filty rich woman (which i am not) with more money than i could count (i do wish), i could hire STs, not volunteers.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:26:54 PM)
I'd go one further Des, and say "Entertainment and structure."
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:27:18 PM)
and then i would feel a great deal more comfortable - saying no, you cant play. Instead these are volunteers. Every last one of tthem. who every amount of energy and time they devote- is done becuase they want to.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:27:21 PM)
We could all play on unmoderated freeform games. We come to ones with rules and STs so that there is that kind of structure and rules to play under.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:28:29 PM)
Well, the structure is being built. Again, we're not even three months old and we've amassed numbers that we simply didn't expect. We're doing everything we can to ensure that entertainment is provided, as well as a structured core-base of rules and bylaws, but we're still only a handful of blues, folks.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:28:46 PM)
We can only do so much. :)
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:28:56 PM)
So much, so fast I should say.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:29:08 PM)
Caution before progress, right?
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:29:24 PM)
Nobody wants a half-baked call being made in haste, do they?
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:29:27 PM)
Trust me, if i had STs beating down my doorstep
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:29:35 PM)
Again, I don't feel a ruling should be put in place limiting STs playing in their own games. That's one of those integrity things that each ST should look inside for but not be forced upon in my opinion.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:29:40 PM)
Neither do I want a half-baked ruling made by an ST regarding her own PC.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:29:47 PM)
Gavril- and that issue was dealt with no?
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:29:55 PM)
Fair.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:30:00 PM)
Anyway, I'm done. Next?
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:30:31 PM)
Next... Did you get a chance to talk to Ghostlin about the Renown thing yet?
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:30:33 PM)
The buyback.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:30:37 PM)
He's on break, no.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:30:44 PM)
I have not had the chance.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:31:13 PM)
I'd like to also submit- if he's unwilling to impose a buyback on people who got some thirty+ renown for free... maybe grant that to the people who didn't? It'd mean everyone started at Fostern, but again, keep things fair. Yeah?
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:31:43 PM)
Michael- i said i'd propose the buyback. that's honestly all i'm ging to do to rehash very old territory at this point.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:31:49 PM)
Actually, I may be able to shed light on this.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:32:01 PM)
Why, SD?
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:32:07 PM)
I'm guilty of having one of those "Horrid Fostern Transfers" myself.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:32:13 PM)
Because at some point i have to draw the line on how much of my time is worth dealing with the issue.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:32:20 PM)
And where it falls in my priorities to address.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:32:24 PM)
That should never be an issue with an Admin.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:32:33 PM)
The amount of time should always be "Till it's resolved.".
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:32:35 PM)
Given that there are 24 hours in the day and i have a to do list 500 miles long.
auggy (Aug 8, 2010 8:32:37 PM)
O.o
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:32:40 PM)
that's not realistic.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:32:44 PM)
Doing nothing in the hopes that people stop being upset is no answer.
auggy (Aug 8, 2010 8:33:08 PM)
Michael...are you going to pay my mortgage?
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:33:18 PM)
Also- please, i'd like you to pay my car payment.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:33:22 PM)
And my medical bills.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:33:38 PM)
So, your answer is: You'll only moderate problems that a portion of your playerbase has if... we pay you to?
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:33:50 PM)
No.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:33:51 PM)
What they're trying to say is that we're only so many people, and can only do so much
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:34:07 PM)
That's not at all what i'm saying. I'm saying that because i do not at all expect you to do these things, i have to dedicate some portion of my week to holding a job.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:34:08 PM)
This is an integral problem of the game and one that has a sickeningly easy remedy.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:34:20 PM)
Explain Michael.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:34:32 PM)
The only issue as to WHY no one would impose a buyback is because it would have a detrimental effect on their characters.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:34:35 PM)
Alright Des, let me explain.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:34:46 PM)
Michael- actually there's about three other reasons too but. okay
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:34:58 PM)
Transfers had to pay their experience back in. That way they end up with NO advantage over newer players. That's fair.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:35:32 PM)
But some also began with dozens of points of renown. For some reason we never put a buyback in that system. All it would take is "All of your Renown requests are at 1/2 until you've paid for what you started the game with."
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:35:50 PM)
That's actually been brought up in a prior meeting
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:35:52 PM)
That's been met with "Maybe." "We'll see." "It's a possibility." "I'll try and if it's no, too bad. We're not talking about it anymore."
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:35:54 PM)
It would also require tracking what they had.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:36:06 PM)
Which would take less than five minutes a PC.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:36:06 PM)
Yes, that's been discussed.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:36:13 PM)
And we have 74
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:36:19 PM)
which we need to figure out how many were transfers
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:36:19 PM)
Not 74 transfers.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:36:29 PM)
That's already been done and is on the Soapbox.
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:36:30 PM)
.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:36:43 PM)
And we thank you for doing that work for us.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:36:46 PM)
And really, you know an easy way to track it?
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:36:48 PM)
It makes our job a little easier. :)
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:36:56 PM)
These PCs are paying at XP penalties.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:37:03 PM)
Because i implemented it in the code base michael
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:37:04 PM)
They're already flagged for that, aren't they?
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:37:13 PM)
There you go. Transfers found.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:37:19 PM)
Unless they've already paid off their XP
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:37:22 PM)
Check ST notes for what Renown was added.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:37:50 PM)
You've put a lot of thought into this, haven't you?
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:37:56 PM)
No. This was a first thought.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:37:59 PM)
You know more about the database than I do.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:38:15 PM)
And a lot of people have come to the same conclusion.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:38:28 PM)
Is there any reason that people -shouldn't- implement this?
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:38:54 PM)
There are several reasons, which I dare not voice publically
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:39:10 PM)
Hit me with some.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:39:18 PM)
I could go over them but you've already said that the idea of having to prioritize what we spend our time on is bunk.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:39:40 PM)
Because to me and every non-transfer, the only reason we're coming up with is- they won't devote a couple of hours to fixing it because they would lose renown on their PCs.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:39:55 PM)
If you've got a better reason, put my doubt to rest.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:40:08 PM)
I would rather not. We're grateful for you playing here, and we cherish your time and attention that you've devoted to our chat. Be that as it may, you're still a player, and do not have unlimited access to the inner-workings of how this chat operates.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:40:41 PM)
*Headshake* I have to say, that's really disappointing.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:41:02 PM)
Everyone of you STs and Admins in this room play a transfer, don't you?
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:41:09 PM)
Of we?
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:41:20 PM)
Am I mistaken?
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:41:22 PM)
All three do.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:41:27 PM)
Are you implying something sir?
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:41:28 PM)
Tristan, Andy and whoever Des plays.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:41:30 PM)
He is.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:41:40 PM)
I'm telling you that you, of all people, should be eager to dispel player misgivings.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:41:49 PM)
we of all people....
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:41:53 PM)
I told you what the consensus is. What it looks like.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:41:57 PM)
okay. I think I'm starting to understand your point of view here
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:42:01 PM)
Your answer is "We won't give you a different reason."
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:42:15 PM)
You've become a self-appointed "Voice of the people"
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:42:18 PM)
"Even knowing what it looks like. We won't give a single reason otherwise."
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:42:27 PM)
Even knowing that we've agreed to talk about it
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:42:28 PM)
and have not said no
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:42:33 PM)
you're going to continue complaining.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:42:36 PM)
Keep in mind, Des. This is being screencapped.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:42:42 PM)
Which is fine, we keep our own logs.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:42:48 PM)
I completely understand. What I've offered is nothing shy of truth
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:43:15 PM)
I'll finish with this, because I feel the quality of conversation has debased into a more accusory form of communique
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:43:17 PM)
Des you just played a very common T.V. show tactic "I'm going to ignore what Michael just said because he said 'you people' implying I am a member of a group which he is not"
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:43:26 PM)
And I'm not impressed by it on Maury.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:43:30 PM)
Nor will I be impressed by it here.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:43:53 PM)
I'm telling you that as an ST you need to hold yourself to a higher standard. If you're going to flip that as being accused to deflect the situation, go ahead.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:44:08 PM)
We've worked especially hard to offer a new and exciting media for the Original WoD player base to enjoy in terms of roleplay and scenery.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:44:30 PM)
I'm not flipping
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:44:36 PM)
I'm also telling you that I intend to show these screenshots publicly to ally fears that the ST team is doing something shady. If your response is "this is ST business, we won't tell players why we won't deduct renown from our sheets" that's on you too.
Light-of-Helios (Aug 8, 2010 8:44:38 PM)
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SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:44:40 PM)
I'm merely saying that i am really not understanding why we need to go to accusations
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:44:40 PM)
...I dare you to do better.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:44:49 PM)
What accusations?
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:44:51 PM)
When we havent told you we're refusing?
Light-of-Helios (Aug 8, 2010 8:44:53 PM)
I hacked the password.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:44:57 PM)
Good for you light
Light-of-Helios (Aug 8, 2010 8:45:01 PM)
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Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:45:02 PM)
I told you how it looks. I didn't say you did anything wrong, just that it looks bad.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:45:20 PM)
I implored you- put our minds at ease. This is very disturbing for us all.
Light-of-Helios (Aug 8, 2010 8:45:24 PM)
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Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:45:27 PM)
We got a flippant "Are you calling us cheaters!?"
Light-of-Helios (Aug 8, 2010 8:45:33 PM)
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Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:45:38 PM)
It was the syntax of your implication
Light-of-Helios (Aug 8, 2010 8:45:40 PM)
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Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:45:40 PM)
No. We're not accusing you of anything.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:45:48 PM)
He used the English language. "You STs and Admins in here"
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:45:51 PM)
Is he an admin? No.
Light-of-Helios (Aug 8, 2010 8:45:52 PM)
Tolerance my good chat owner. Tolerance.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:45:58 PM)
The secnd person plural/singular is perfectly legal in English.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:45:59 PM)
We're inviting you to prove that thought wrong before it gets to anyone thinking that.
Light-of-Helios (Aug 8, 2010 8:46:01 PM)
I am a nice guy really. I just wanna be friends.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:46:02 PM)
One moment folks
Light-of-Helios (Aug 8, 2010 8:46:09 PM)
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Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:46:09 PM)
The more you dissemble and deflect, the worse it looks.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:46:15 PM)
If you want me to do it in Greek which has a designated rude way to call you 'you guys over there'
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:46:16 PM)
I'll do it.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:46:19 PM)
Ekinoi.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:46:29 PM)
Gavril: You're being overly snarky, and have had your say
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:46:32 PM)
That will be enough. :)
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:46:55 PM)
Please, I was invited to pay the Admin Mortgage when I told them they shouldn't just ignore problems.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:47:01 PM)
Snark is in the air.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:47:13 PM)
You were not invited seriously michael.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:47:24 PM)
I'm trying to point out to you the reality of my life which is i cannot dedicate 24/7 to issues.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:47:25 PM)
I know, that doesn't make it any less inappropriate.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:47:58 PM)
In the time we've talked about it, half the sheets could've been done. I know how long this thing takes, every person in this room is an ST somewhere.
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:48:02 PM)
Ouch.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:48:11 PM)
Yes, instead, i've been listening or tryig to listen
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:48:20 PM)
to all the issues you've presented to me, including those beyond the sheets and renown.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:48:24 PM)
would you have prefered that I not?
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:48:35 PM)
Why do you have to make a snide question like that?
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:48:40 PM)
It's not snide
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:48:42 PM)
It devalidated the goodwill of your first two posts.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:48:51 PM)
or it's not intented to be, i'm actually asking very litterally and not trying to be snide about that
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:48:53 PM)
You're telling me that wasn't rhetorical?
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:48:56 PM)
no, it wasnt
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:49:03 PM)
Does SignalDancer not have the right to defend her chat?
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:49:11 PM)
Did you honestly believe anyone would've answered with "Yes, we'd prefer you wouldn't listen to us at all."?
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:49:18 PM)
I'm asking what you would prefer I do.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:49:25 PM)
It's not a rhetorical question.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:49:40 PM)
"Would you prefer I didn't listen to you?" Isn't rhetorical?
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:49:45 PM)
I'm...flabergasted.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:49:56 PM)
No, would you prefer that i had cut short this conversatio
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:50:08 PM)
put the complaints off, and gone and spent the time on sheets instead. is the question.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:50:18 PM)
For me? Yes.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:50:24 PM)
Would you implement the system if we stopped talking?
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:50:25 PM)
Then yes.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:50:41 PM)
Stop talking now, make an announcement about every transfer buying back XP.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:50:43 PM)
i still need to talk to ghostlin but then i'm making a point here about where my time gets used. frankly.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:50:46 PM)
XP=renown*
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:50:59 PM)
I'm honestly cool with you talking to Ghostlin about it. Appreciated
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:51:11 PM)
This issue wasn't about you talking to Ghostlin.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:51:21 PM)
My point still stands, Michael.
auggy (Aug 8, 2010 8:51:36 PM)
Okay, I gotta bounce out and go shopping.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:51:36 PM)
What incited it was, I offered you a couple of alternatives to give Ghostlin if he wasn't comfortable with the buyback system I proposed.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:51:40 PM)
You said "No."
auggy (Aug 8, 2010 8:51:42 PM)
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SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:51:48 PM)
Yes, i said no.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:52:03 PM)
Meaning- if he refuses the buyback, fuck all the non-transfers.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:52:13 PM)
No other alternatives will be considered.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:52:15 PM)
If that's how you feel after this point there's clearly nothing i can do about it.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:52:22 PM)
It's what you've said.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:52:28 PM)
It's hardly what i've said.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:52:28 PM)
It's not a question about how I feel.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:52:39 PM)
I have at no point vouched for the "fuck" any group of players
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:52:45 PM)
You said, if he refuses it, you won't consider anymore options because there's been too much debate already.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:52:53 PM)
Is that not true- keeping in mind it's screenshot?
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:53:37 PM)
Screenshot what you want Michael.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:53:44 PM)
*Laugh!*
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:53:48 PM)
I'm very, very tired of going around this particular mullberry bush with you.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:53:48 PM)
Is it true or not?
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:54:15 PM)
it's true that i will not consider handing out free renown to every other PC in the venue.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:54:21 PM)
As you have proposed.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:54:35 PM)
That's not what I asked.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:54:50 PM)
"Is the sky blue?" "It's true the sky has clouds."
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:55:03 PM)
Will you consider further options if the buyback is denied?
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:55:06 PM)
If you want to play politics and legalease with me i am not playing this game.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:55:12 PM)
*LAUGH!*
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:55:23 PM)
please, post screenshots. i'm inclined to post the full logs of the conversation.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:55:32 PM)
I'd encourage you to.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:55:37 PM)
In fact, I'm -begging- you.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:55:43 PM)
Post the entire logs of this room in the Soapbox.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:55:55 PM)
We've gone well beyond our means to accomodate your issues and problems in a timely and civil manner.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:56:02 PM)
So noted, then do we have any other issues to address here?
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:56:03 PM)
It will validate our screenshots as being true.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:56:08 PM)
or have we at least discussed at length all the concerns?
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:56:22 PM)
No. You have addressed no issues and only insulted. I'm disappointed, especially after having defended you.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:56:34 PM)
I have..35 screencaps contstituting the entire conversation. You can post logs but they will only provide me with additional evidence.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:56:40 PM)
I have not intended to insult anyone in here michael
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:56:43 PM)
And encourage you to post the logs.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:56:52 PM)
Now, if possible. I'll wait.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:57:01 PM)
Not quite possible this very second.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:57:07 PM)
Within the evening?
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:57:09 PM)
So you imply that this entire meeting was designed to entrap the staff in revealing some "Ugly Light" that the administration harbors
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:57:14 PM)
Y'know i'm not going to promise it either way michael.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:57:16 PM)
I siad i'm inclined.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:57:39 PM)
Thus, you've confessed to an ulterior motive and an elusive manner in which this entire room was created
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:57:50 PM)
I make no such implication. I say only if you feel you're not doing anything shady and have behaved as STs and Admins should here, and gave a fair accounting- you have nothing to hide, Deschain.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:57:51 PM)
Do you?
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:57:56 PM)
Hardly.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:58:13 PM)
So you agree. You've nothing to hide and feel you were appropriate?
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:58:13 PM)
We have absolutely nothing to hide in how this chat operates
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:58:19 PM)
We dont.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:58:27 PM)
If i wanted to hide it do you think i would throw it out there in the open?
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:58:31 PM)
Then you have no problem posting the logs to validate our screenshots.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:58:51 PM)
We would have no issues with such, but the decision will ultimately be left up to the decision of the administration
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:58:51 PM)
Des. your lawyering of the English language by creating arguements from silence flies in the face of Aristotle lived and died to bring us.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:58:57 PM)
Not by the request of a player
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:59:06 PM)
*Laugh!*
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:59:07 PM)
of what*
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:59:07 PM)
Okay, Des.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:59:09 PM)
Also, i'm rather appalled that we're the ones being said to be insulting
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:59:17 PM)
when you are the ones laughing at us, and gavril is the one name calling us
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:59:17 PM)
Well I'm done watching Michael say things
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:59:23 PM)
And then being trolled like a bad Maury povitch guest.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:59:25 PM)
Its disguisting.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:59:28 PM)
Then feel free to post the logs and leave it to the community, SD.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:59:42 PM)
If you feel we were being insulting and unreasonable, then let everyone chime in agreement.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 8:59:42 PM)
You know exactly what he means Des, you are clearly intelligent.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 8:59:44 PM)
Then perhaps Sinful Illusions is not the chat media of your choice then, Gavril. Perhaps you should find entertainment elsewhere.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:59:49 PM)
HAHAHA!
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 8:59:52 PM)
I knew it would go there!
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 8:59:59 PM)
Ah, so you planned it to?
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:00:08 PM)
Every bad ST and Admin in the history of online gaming. "If you don't like it, play somewhere else!"
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:00:12 PM)
No. I predicted it.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:00:21 PM)
Arguement from silence.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:00:21 PM)
So you're implying that we're bad STs?
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:00:24 PM)
I saw storm clouds with how you were behaving and predicted that thunder.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:00:25 PM)
Logical fallacies are rampant.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:00:26 PM)
Whee.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 9:00:28 PM)
He's not implying it, he's outright saying it.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:00:30 PM)
I'm not implying anything.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:00:36 PM)
I'm saying that is a bad thing for ANY ST to say.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:00:38 PM)
I think we've seen enough, SD.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 9:00:41 PM)
I think we have.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:00:43 PM)
I agree.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 9:00:45 PM)
There's nothing more productive to be done here.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:00:49 PM)
Anything else "on the record"?
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:01:06 PM)
Not from this end
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 9:01:10 PM)
No.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:01:20 PM)
Alright, allow a moment for screenshots to catch up to logs.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:01:25 PM)
I'm golden.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:01:28 PM)
41 in total.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:01:30 PM)
Me too.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:01:35 PM)
Oh, aside from a hearty and fond farewell. May your journeys for the perfect chat be fruitful
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:01:48 PM)
Are you saying you're banning us?
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:01:54 PM)
I don't have access to ban
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:01:58 PM)
SD are we being banned?
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:02:02 PM)
So no, I'm not saying that
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 9:02:05 PM)
I've said nothing of the sort.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 9:02:12 PM)
And no Deschain does not have access to ban.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:02:26 PM)
Very well then. We've put significant time into our character generation and play time.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:02:26 PM)
Since Des is talking about people implying things, I thought it prudent to ask what "journeying away to new chats" meant.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 9:02:32 PM)
That , for the open record, lies with myself and auggy only.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 9:02:40 PM)
It means that since we obviously cannot please you
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 9:02:44 PM)
that we hope you find somewhere that does.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:02:51 PM)
Tsk tsk. On the cross?
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 9:02:58 PM)
No, hardly.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:03:04 PM)
This situation is displeasing.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:03:06 PM)
That's all.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 9:03:07 PM)
Indeed.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:03:10 PM)
I concur
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:03:18 PM)
The way you refuse to assist in ways that we require is displeasing.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:03:23 PM)
But... since it needs to be said...
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:03:30 PM)
I agree. I for one look forward to playing in both Des and Ghostlin's venues. You have some great players, good storylines forming etc.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:03:45 PM)
Des is an excellent ST. Besides his remark at the end and some of what struck me as goading... I have a wealth of respect for him.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:04:03 PM)
We're on different sides of this situation, and I really can't wait to be on the same side again.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:04:22 PM)
And SD... I've got a lot of respect for you too. On a number of issues you've wowed me and flipped my opinion of the entire game.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:04:38 PM)
I mean I'd like an assurance that Kalos gets attention equal to any other player regardless of this OOC conflict.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:04:39 PM)
Don't judge me or my friends here on the basis of this one angry disagreement as I won't judge the either of you.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:04:50 PM)
Agreed with Michael.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:05:35 PM)
We appreciate your patronage at Sinful Illusions, and we look forward for providing the community with exceptional and pioneering quality of entertainment.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:05:59 PM)
Thank you, Michael and Gavril, for your time and attention
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:06:12 PM)
Then I'm glad we're on the same page.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:06:13 PM)
Des, I have yet to see assurance that Kalos will get respect as a PC like anyone else.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:06:22 PM)
Then I'll peace out and leave you to your evening.
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:06:29 PM)
SD-
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:06:40 PM)
I've been quiet because I know you wanted to talk to me.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:07:08 PM)
Right, you had mentioned needing to speak with him when we were all done.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 9:07:13 PM)
And at the moment I am going to ask you to wait.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 9:07:20 PM)
a bit. if possible.
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:07:28 PM)
Sure.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 9:07:33 PM)
thank you.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 9:08:08 PM)
I'll go ahead and say go do whatever it is you need/want to do at the moment and i will or another member of the staff will contact you. since i cant handle it right this second.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 9:08:17 PM)
and there is no sense in making you sit there.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:08:22 PM)
Well I'm waiting.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:08:44 PM)
I guess it's just that last bit with Des and Gavril before we all break and get back to living.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:09:30 PM)
What about Des and Gavril?
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:09:54 PM)
I have asked you twice for confirmation that since I'm not being site banned, that you will treat Kalos like every other player played character.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:10:01 PM)
I.e. that I can expect fair treatment despite this conflict.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:10:03 PM)
...wait hold on.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:10:34 PM)
Let me...... um....
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:10:53 PM)
Did you desanction my Mage Des?
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:11:05 PM)
Gavril, are you questioning my integrity as a Storyteller to a level that I would single out your character simply because you showed a concern in another venue?
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:11:18 PM)
I'm frankly insulted by that
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:11:35 PM)
You're insulted by a player nervously wanting to know if he'll be treated the same for having an argument?
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:11:40 PM)
Your character is not desanctioned. I will continue to treat all mages with fairness and equality.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:12:00 PM)
You can be insulted, I'm -disgusted- with how you keep trying to flip everything into a personal attack against you.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:12:13 PM)
Your opinion is naturally your own
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:12:34 PM)
Here a player who really enjoys your game was nervous about having offended you to the point he might've done lasting damage and asked if things would be the same.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:12:43 PM)
And you flip that into being an assault on your character?
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:12:44 PM)
Be that as it may, I have offered not a single inkling of any spite towards any of you as players, characters, or otherwise on this chat.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:12:45 PM)
Really? REALLY?
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:12:56 PM)
And to be accused of that is deploring
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:13:09 PM)
and yes, Really.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:13:14 PM)
I didn't accuse you. You kept insinuating we were quitting the chat.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:13:20 PM)
So I asked if I'd be treated fairly.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:13:22 PM)
I did nothing of the sort
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:13:25 PM)
You did.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:13:26 PM)
I only offered an alternative
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:13:41 PM)
Read your logs and it will confirm that.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:13:43 PM)
I mean Des please understand that honestly your arguements are highly semantical.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:14:10 PM)
I was asking you for simple confirmation. Don't play the southern bell "Oh me why golly I'd never do such a thing" it was a legitimate question that you could have responded very easily.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:14:16 PM)
responded to*
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:14:24 PM)
"You will not be treated any differently."
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:14:27 PM)
Very simple. "Will I continue to receive fair treatment?"
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:14:35 PM)
*Points to Michael* Done deal. I leave the room.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:14:35 PM)
So you are berating me because I didn't answer in the exact manner in which you expected?
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:14:44 PM)
That's... a tad immature isn't it?
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:14:45 PM)
You are again making a highly semantic sophistic arguement.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:14:48 PM)
You accused him of calling you a cheater?
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:14:52 PM)
That's immature, Des.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:14:55 PM)
Attempting to wordsmith your way into getting me to leave.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 9:14:59 PM)
This conversation ends now.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:15:02 PM)
I agree.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:15:06 PM)
Indeed. Your STs have proven themselves quite artfully.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:15:08 PM)
Grab the logs Gavril, and let's go.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:15:15 PM)
Please, by all means
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:15:19 PM)
The door.... is to the left.
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:15:20 PM)
*points*
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:15:23 PM)
Des, stop.
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 9:15:24 PM)
Des.
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:15:31 PM)
X_X
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:15:39 PM)
Wow, Des...
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:15:55 PM)
Administrator disciplinary action please.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:16:15 PM)
*Sigh* I'd rather we just go. If we ask for that and nothing happens, it'll make things worse.
Rathalos OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:17:23 PM)
(This user has moved to OOC Room) (IP = 75.74.208.163)
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:17:38 PM)
Later.
Gavril Sorin (Aug 8, 2010 9:17:39 PM)
(This user has moved to OOC Room) (IP = 71.251.137.202)
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:18:29 PM)
Sorry the discussion ended this way. I really am.
Michael OOC (Aug 8, 2010 9:18:32 PM)
(This user has moved to OOC Room) (IP = 70.115.217.164)
Deschain (Aug 8, 2010 9:18:50 PM)
(This user has moved to OOC Room) (IP = 174.50.121.121)
SignalDancer (Aug 8, 2010 9:24:31 PM)
(This user has moved to OOC Room) (IP = 174.97.128.194)
Des (Aug 8, 2010 9:31:23 PM)
(This user has left DigiChat) (IP = 174.50.121.121)